Transcript

The Outdoor Teacher Ltd owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Wild Mind Podcasts, with all rights reserved, including right of publicity.

You are welcome to share an excerpt from the episode transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles, in a non-commercial article or blog post, and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include proper attribution and link back to the podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.

No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Marina Robb's name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services. 

(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Marina Robb: What if wild, not domesticated, should be our normal instead of factory farmed lives, what if you could cultivate fulfilling lives and contribute to a healthy natural world?

The wild minds podcast is brought to you by me. Marina Robb, an author, social entrepreneur, Forest School and nature-based trainer and consultant and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.

Join me as I discover new perspectives on what it is to be a human in a more than human world, challenging dominant paradigms, finding ways to be kinder on ourselves and harder on the system. I'm also the founder of the outdoor teacher and creator of practical online Forest School, outdoor learning and nature-based trainings for people in health, education and business. Tune in for interviews, insights, cutting edge and actionable approaches to help you to improve your relationship with yourself, others and the natural world.

Welcome to Episode 51 nature-based revolution. I had the great pleasure of speaking with Amy who has worked for 12 years as Senior Social forestry and wellbeing manager for small woods, supporting and growing the social forestry and wellbeing team. Her work focused on supporting people and partnerships to deliver wellbeing activities in woods. One of the most heartening takeaways from our conversation was her belief in the power of collaboration to create meaningful positive change. As part of the small woods Association, Amy has led numerous impactful projects across Wales. Their work has produced a wealth of evidence showcasing the health benefits of spending time outdoors, a powerful testament to the connection between nature and wellbeing. We recorded this conversation just before Christmas and ahead of Amy's exciting transition to a new role where she'll be bringing diverse stakeholders together to address climate change at both local and national levels, her approach sounded incredibly creative and forward thinking, and I can't wait to see the impact of her work in this new chapter. Hi Amy, and welcome to the wild minds Podcast. I'm just, yeah, really grateful that you're here.

Amie Andrews: Thanks, Marina, delighted to be here. Nice to meet you.

Marina Robb: So I always start with gratitude, and I know we're going to be talking about forestry and wellbeing so my gratitude is to the fact that I do get to go in the woods and work with people, and I think it's I feel often really privileged by that role and being able to spend time for myself, but also to facilitate that for other people. So yeah, I'm grateful for the work that I'm able to do. How about you?

Amie Andrews: Yeah, I at the point I am now in my career. I'm changing job roles quite soon, and I've been working in my current role for 12 years, so I'm feeling really grateful to the time that I've had doing the work that I've really loved and really been passionate about, and all the people and partnerships and woodlands that have been involved in that work, I feel like together, we've made a real impact to the kind of landscape in Wales around health and wellbeing and woodlands and nature and people and kind of bringing those strands together. So yeah, it's just been an incredible 12 years. And yeah, I'm really grateful for that journey.

Marina Robb: Well, that's why I wanted to speak to you, because you have been working in this field for 12 years, and I think what would be great for the listener is to hear a little bit about that, and then we'll move on to what you're going to be doing next. So to begin with, tell me a little bit about the organization that you've been working for. I understand that it's called Small. Words and I'm going to attempt, and we laughed about this before to say the word in Welsh, which I'm going to say, coyd cleol. And actually, I do have ancestors that are Welsh. I'm Lewis from my grandparents, but I never learned Welsh. So yeah, just tell me a little bit, maybe correct me if you can on the name, but also a little bit about what is this charity, and then we'll get into it. Thank you.

Amie Andrews: Great. So you did a great job of trying with coyd cleol. And I am also not a native Welsh speaker, so I'm doing my best with that. I'm sure there are Welsh speakers out there who would be able to improve on my pronunciation, but yeah, I work for coyd, which actually means local woods, and it's part of the small woods Association. It's the Welsh element of the small woods Association. And small woods is a national charity that works with small woodland owners across the UK to improve biodiversity and woodland management and health and wellbeing and economics in small woodlands, and really kind of champion that work and that support and in 2010 in Wales, We started a small pilot project that looked at how could woodlands support human health and wellbeing. And it was a very small project, in partnership with the Forestry Commission, worked in two locations, one that was in South Wales, in a little place called tree Herbert in Ronda counantaff, and then also in mid Wales, in Aberystwyth, and this was a real kind of pioneering opportunity to look at the benefits to nature and also the benefits to people and from the get go. It was important to monitor and evaluate that so the organizations work together to ensure that was really embedded in the activities. And they trialed different things at the time, including woodland gym and walking and conservation activities. And basically, our work kind of really grew from out of those early sessions and in the time that I've been here, I've just seen this huge transformation and appetite for health and wellbeing in woodlands and nature, in green and blue spaces. And we at our peak, we're working in 18 counties with about 50 staff and about 120 different experts who had skills and knowledge in different themes around woodlands and nature.

Marina Robb: Okay, just hang on there, because it's already got me thinking about lots of other things. And also I almost want to track back, because in my career, we would almost imagine that woodlands are to are not for people in a way. Yeah, at the beginning of my career, it was like, you know, we need to look after woodlands. We need national parks. We need to preserve them. And I would love to hear from you that sort of change in our approach of bringing people into woodlands and just to speak a little bit to that, because I still think there is a sense in woodlands and woodland management that there we are here, you know, we're here to manage woodlands, and presumably, historically, to harvest them for timber as A resource. And yet, here you are as an organization, there's a charity, kind of saying, no, actually, in 2010 we need, we want, we believe that there's this partnership between people and nature. And would you speak a little bit about that, before we get into the detail of what you guys do and why you do it, sure.

Amie Andrews: So I think kind of moving on to thinking about, like what social forestry actually is. So my job title is social forestry and wellbeing and manager and part of the work we do is more around social forestry and more another part is around the kind of more wellbeing activities. So social forestry is about the management, preservation and protection of woodlands with the involvement of people. And so it's about balancing the needs of the woodland with the needs of the communities. And like you say, it can be about humans benefiting from the resources in The Woodlands, but it's also about the people supporting a biodiverse and healthy woodland by managing it. And I think people in woodlands have actually worked in this symbiotic relationship for. Or, you know, since the beginning, really, and it can be on a very practical level. So humans might thin trees to improve the light in the woodland, and that will increase biodiversity. Or we might remove invasive species that are suffocating the native plants and trees, and again, that will enhance the biodiversity. But ultimately, it's much more deep and significant than that actually we are dependent on each other for our survival and for having a healthy planet. And it's that natural balance of trees providing the carbon dioxide and turning it into oxygen that we then breathe in, and we are in this kind of harmonious diamond dynamic relationship with each other. And even from our offices and homes, where we might feel really disconnected for Nate from nature, we're actually in this cyclical relationship with nature. So I think there's lots of ways that people and trees can and do work together without us even really being aware of it.

Marina Robb: Definitely, and I think I'm really aware how times have changed, as I say, because in the past, it was seen that we needed, as I say, preserve nature and sort of protect nature from humans, not seeing us as part of that cyclical cycle, I want to say, and I think that's really worth noting, because I also have read stories about how forests were grown through people planting acorns and supporting the growth of trees. And it's just an unlikely partnership, or at least it would have been in the past, between the Forestry Commission, which, as I understand it, was created to, you know, grow trees so that we had wood for resource in a small nation, an island nation. But things have really changed, haven't they? And it sounds like what you're speaking to it is only 14 years ago. Yeah, 2010 and that's quite a change in the way we see our role as humans, as supporting biodiversity. Do you agree with that?

Amie Andrews: I do, and I mean, obviously on the flip side of that there is looking at the human impact on woodlands, and we have to really think about which parts of the woodlands we're engaging with and we're using, and how to best benefit nature and benefit people, because you don't want everyone just kind of trampling everywhere in the forest and destroying it as well. So there is that element to consider.

Marina Robb: Yeah, and I imagine that's about educating as well and giving people the opportunity to engage in ways that are more reciprocal. So social forestry, it's not a term that I hear used a lot, actually, in England. So as you might know, I'm quite involved in green prescribing and green interventions and things like that. And what hasn't come to the forefront is this idea of social forestry and what I'd like to understand is, as a charity, how have you made that happen? So, you know, presumably, you've had to raise funds and give that to organizations to facilitate some of this work that you're doing. Really like to understand that and help people understand how it works, how actually it works? How do you how do you facilitate these programs? How do you facilitate social forestry?

Amie Andrews: It's a very good question, and I think it's happened in lots of different ways. And I think one of the things that we're doing as an organization is taking the idea to a new area or new place, and then working with partners, people, Woodland sites in that location. So it might look a little different depending on the area that we're working in. But how do these things happen? It's based on, so far it's been based on us securing funding to be able to run those programs. So we've had significant funding from lottery, from Welsh Government, from the AON B's, from voluntary associations, and we have had more in more recent years, funding from health boards. So through the regional integration Fund, which I believe is linked to the health board, we've had funding to run programs, and we're also on the Swansea University bay health board framework. So these are really recent. Recent funding partnerships that are coming through health. And in Wales, we have the new social National Social prescribing framework. And I believe that the ambition is that there will be funding for nature-based activities through health and social care that will really ensure that these services are embedded in long term. Yeah, because our work has been funding focused, it means if you've got a three year project, that's brilliant, but in more recent years, funding seems to be very short term, like one year funding, and that is not sustainable for our teams, for the staff involved, it's not sustainable for the participants or the referral partners. So working with GPS and health professionals, they need and want to know that services are there for the long term. It's really difficult for them to get on board with recommending or referring our services if they know that it might not be there in six months or a year's time, because it takes time to get people involved.

Marina Robb: Yeah. I mean, this is what I really want to unpack a little bit before we get into the multiple reasons why we need to be doing this. I think this is I used this phrase last in the last podcast from the last season, which is the elephant in the room. So the elephant keeps coming up because, I'm as an organization, my organization would be seen as one of those voluntary sector partners, let's say, in your model, but I'm in England, and exactly as you said, I'm as a small organization, have to try and secure funding, and then I make partnerships with the health sector and deliver programs. When I say, I mean the organization, and it's really difficult, as you say, so it's a small organization trying to secure funding, and it maybe it's one year, maybe it's two years and yet, we are implicit in this model, in this theory of change. Let's say where we want to bring people that don't necessarily have access to the woods, who may have mental health difficulties, you know, bring them into the woods, take them through a program, and hopefully get those benefits. But that's all relying on this funding, and that's the elephant in the room for me. Is that we've got a we want this to happen, and yet we as voluntary organizations, are having to secure funding that isn't reliable. And I wonder whether you said the word sustainable. I wonder whether you've got any thoughts about that, and what you would like to see in place, perhaps, having been in this role for 12 years, because it's a fact that this is the way it's being operated, isn't it, at the moment. And I just wonder whether you've got any thoughts or recommendations if you were in a role. Do you have any thoughts about how to make it more sustainable?

Amie Andrews: Well, you're right. It is the elephant in the room, and it is, but I think the elephant is kind of going on a journey, and it is getting smaller and more diverse, and I think funding is coming from different sources. And health boards are listing they are aware, and they do know that nature-based solutions are powerful for their communities and for their health teams. You know, we have requests from health boards to provide training for trainee GPS and nurses and occupational therapists and to go in and give talks and give them experiences of nature-based solutions to health. So it feels like there is a step change. And I think we were lucky recently to take the health minister at the time, who's actually now the First Minister in Wales, to one of our sites, and she was so positive about the work that we collectively do, and that the power and collaboration there is there for health services. So I don't think it's about not wanting to support these things, to be embedded within the provision. I think it's just a matter of time and how to move resources from firefighting and into prevention and care and community support. I think there are different methods. So we recently ran a feasibility study with the there's a hospital and wellbeing center in. Kindleth, where I live, and we recently looked at how could we truly embed outdoor health and wellbeing within a health service. And we conducted lots of interviews with the healthcare staff, and we did a huge community survey and lots of focus groups to really try and work this out. And I think as part of the ongoing work, we want to look at cross sector collaboration through funding. So funding through some of the health and social care partners, funding through people actually paying. So there are members of the community who have their money to pay to go swimming. They could pay to come on a health and wellbeing walk or a woodland activity, you know, six week program. So I think there is potential, an opportunity in the future to see these services funded through many mechanisms, all working together and hopefully a significant chunk of that would come through healthcare and through government,

Marina Robb: Yeah, I appreciate you say that the elephant is on A journey because, yeah, because it is. And this is a relatively new landscape, I suppose, that we're working within. And as you say, there is good will. It's not really the individual that would say they didn't want to do it, or even the individual politician. it is a case of looking where the money is, I suppose, and then allocating it appropriately. And I guess this comes on the back of research and evidence as well, because I've heard for years and have participated in, you know, research, you know that we need more evidence. And interestingly, I think we are at a place where there is evidence, perhaps there isn't studies that show like you would in a medical model, like you would like, okay, so you go to the GP, you're not feeling very well, and they give you a drug, or they give you, send you to the physio, whatever, and they tell you need to do this for 10 times a day, and this will have this outcome. I mean, there is, we're working towards that, but there isn't that kind of detail, let's say, of research, but there is a lot of evidence, isn't there to show the link between the impact of these kinds of nature based program social forestry, and it'd be really good to hear about some of that, and then hopefully we can think also about this medical model and how that's changing. But first, would you speak to some of the known impacts of this kind of work for health and well-being

Amie Andrews: Sure, Marina, I we've been really lucky, another bit of gratitude to have an in house Research and Evaluation coordinator within our team Ever since we started this work, so we've been able to work with universities and researchers, as well as being very methodical in gathering our own data and evidence. So we have reviewed the research that's out there and kind of combined that with our own evidence, and we've found that just being in nature, I mean this is well known. It enhances immune functions just by being out in the fresh air and getting increased Vitamin T, d

Marina Robb: T might be vitamin time, time in nature, yeah.

Amie Andrews: And a cup of tea, and they had a cup of tea, of course. Yeah, and that, you know, it's incredible that trees produce phytoncides in the air that are actually known to support our immune functions. And this is kind of scientifically researched alongside that it reduces stress and blood pressure and heart rate. So just by being outdoors in nature, there is a reduction in the production of stress hormones that can help us relax, but also help recovery from many illnesses. Another thing that we find is that by being outside, it just increases your physical activity. So we had a kind of phrase health by stealth, in that you could get a group of people out who may not want to go for walks or go to the gym or do exercise, but actually they would just naturally get physical. Activity by being outside. We do also, you know, have examples of running woodland gym, actual physical exercise in the outdoors, and then you get the double benefit of being in nature and doing even more kind of exertion with physical activity. Other themes are around social connections. So something that we've observed is that people feel much more at ease to connect socially, because it's not in an intense environment. And in fact, going back to the gym example, a study noted that one of the main differences between gym exercises inside and gym outside was the social connections that people made. People a lot more relaxed outside, less intimidated and likely to spark up a friendship or conversation. And then two other themes I wanted to mention are people feeling reassured by nature's natural cycles. So you know, having spring summer or some winter, and the changes in seasons and the whole sensory experience gives a feeling of reassurance and calm that I think, just, you know, taps right into our evolution, really?

Marina Robb: Yeah, there was one more go on.

Amie Andrews: Well, the final one was just about connecting to childhood experiences. So lots of the a lot of the comments and feedback that we get, or the conversations we hear between people, are about, oh, remember when I was a child and had marshmallows with my grandfather or, yeah, taught reflecting back on really warm and connected experiences with family as children. So that comes up a lot.

Marina Robb: I'm aware that we are going to share a lot of these this research on our show notes, so just to let the listener know they can go and read up about some of the evidence and research that small words have produced. I want to talk about the idea that you can go to a doctor and be prescribed and I think this links into a change that is growing around the world about the medical model versus, or should I say, alongside, a more integrative model of health. And the reason why I'm saying that is because, as I hear you talk about some of the benefits and the evidence, what is coming up for me is that this is, of course, preventative medicine. This is, of course preventative and supportive of heart disease, you know, of anxiety, of depression. And I think in the past, it was hard to see, what do you mean? I'm going to go to a doctor and get a prescription to go on one of these programs. But actually, increasingly, it's becoming clearer to me about what we're talking about here. You know, we're talking about an increase in physical health and a reduction in inflammation, for example. And the research is getting more precise, isn't it, about how you can have an increase in, I think they call them T cells, or something like that, you know, reduces cancer and things like that. And, yeah, it's interesting about this change in the model that we are in a model have been historically in a model, as I understand it, about illness and about, you know, coming in and trying to make that person better, rather than hang on a second, the we can actually think about more preventative ways of looking at it, and that a doctor would prescribe it. How have you seen I mean this, I've said a lot in that, but I'm wondering how you've seen that working from doctors, because I know this is fledgling work here. You know this is we're at the beginning of it, but how have doctors responded to this in your in your experience that, or in what the research says

Amie Andrews: We found initially working encouraging doctors to prescribe or refer people to our activities quite challenging, because I Think they wanted to know the consistency, the reliability, the support for the patients, and also that the people providing the service were trained and had the right skills, DBS checked, and that they felt safe, you know, to call people. So we worked very hard to. To make all of those things clear, we produced an outdoor health pack for health professionals, which set out the qualifications and skills of the leaders, the referral process and how they could encourage someone to come, and then the support that the individual would be given. And we also, and this was the kind of game changer, we provided the experience for the health professionals themselves. So getting them to come out to a woodland and have a session as if they were a participant, then made them feel excited and understand really what we were offering, and they also got the well-being benefit and the team building element of being connected and being reassured and having that reduced stress. And then we saw an increase in referrals, and I think it works really well, and I think it's really important to emphasize that it is complementary to medical care, and it's not necessarily a kind of wholesale alternative. It's like one of the options. So one of the options might be an antidepressant, but the individual could also be offered alongside it, the nature based activity, or it could be offered as an alternative. I think one of the things that I'm really hearing from some of the GPS is that the battle they have is that people want to pill. They want to go into a GP surgery, and they want to come out with something that is going to be a solution to their problems, which is kind of in a pill.

Marina Robb: If the viewer could see, they would have seen me kind of nodding, because I felt the I the idea, or the reality that when you get GPS, or any person that works with groups like teachers or social workers or health practitioners to go into nature and have an experience, they immediately know how they can advocate in a very different way. And I think it's kind of an essential piece to building successful partnership programs is for that to happen. I've had exactly the same so in my work, I've worked with psychiatrists and NHS workers, and as soon as they've had that experience, they are much more able to, for example, tell clients about the woodland green intervention program or the health and wellbeing program and actually, even with parents who are hesitant to come out with their children that might have disabilities or needs, If you can get the parents to come out first, then they get to see what it's all about, and actually the depth of this work, which they hadn't imagined from a flyer, for example. So I think it's really interesting. And I also thought was super interesting what you're saying about the pill, because, yeah, we don't. We need to do more research around that. What are the barriers? And in the work that I've been doing with Natural England, which is being funded to train practitioners to take their work outside, it's very similar. It's like looking at, what are the enablers? What are the barriers to this happening? And, you know, how can we look at the research and then build on the research? And so everything you've been saying is really pertinent. Now, I'm really I could carry on asking you lots of questions around that, but I am aware, as you said right at the beginning, that you will be moving roles after 12 years and into a new role. And what I have understood is that you're moving into a role that's called Innovation manager, and working with communities and climate change and wellbeing. And I would love to hear a little bit about that, because we know that climate change is a huge issue, but how do you bring that back into the community? So first, if you wouldn't mind just saying a little bit about that, and perhaps the links to the job you've already been doing, I'm imagining there are links. Yeah, what are you going to be doing? Amie

Amie Andrews: So I think some of the kind of problems that we've been discussing throughout this conversation, I'm really hopeful that this new work will help unpick some of that so the whole concept of innovation. So I'm going to be running some innovation labs as part of the new job. And obviously I've not started yet, so this is what I imagine it's going to be about. And through the interview and the job description, I'm sure it's pretty close to this, but the idea is to work together, so bringing together the community members or people who actually experience the services that we're talking about, but also policy makers and researchers and people involved in delivery and really bringing as many relevant voices together as possible so that they can hear each other. And a lot of the work that I've been doing over the years has been about that, you know, doing the evidence, doing the research, and then sharing it with the people who are making decisions. So it's about bringing everyone together and identifying the problems that exist, and then together finding lots of solutions, and then together choosing and picking which are the best of those ideas or the best of those solutions, and then trial and testing them and seeing what works, and then using that experience to provide knowledge that then can be scaled up or shares with other situations and people. So I think that's what it's about. And I'm really aware that our wellbeing is so deeply connected to the wellbeing of the planet and the woodlands that it feels like a really important step in the work that I'm doing now.

Marina Robb: Yeah. So I, I agree with you, and I sit here as somebody that is Yeah, from education and health, and have been thinking about climate change, and the government is bringing a climate change mandate for education from September next year, which I think is 2025 if I'm in my dates, right, and it's a mandate. It's not statutory. And I've been thinking about, you know, climate change a lot, in terms of the big issues, you know, like carbon emissions, land issues, pollution of waters, how this ocean gets acidified, and these, all these big things, and when you said about community, and I really fully appreciate that you haven't started the job, so this is from an imaginative position, and also from a personal position, As a practitioner that you are. How do we get from these big issues to local issues, and then how? How does that inform policy? Do policies decision makers? Do they listen? I mean, that's not just the one answer, but how you know? Because you have, you're right. You have been doing this for a long time. Yeah, please speak to a little bit about that, because I always think, you know, it's overwhelm, how people are overwhelmed by these big issues that insurmountable for an individual. So how do you think some of this will play out on the local level and then feed back into policy?

Amie Andrews: Yeah, I mean, brilliant questions Marina, and I'm hoping that these this vehicle or this job and these ideas are about bringing those people together in the room. And in fact, one of the questions in the interview is, choose an area of policy and explain how you'll use the community to kind of influence and change that. So I feel like there's an invitation to kind of bring the voices of people and their ideas and solutions.

Marina Robb: How did you do that? Then, what did you say in that interview?

Amie Andrews: Well, I talk

Marina Robb: Not directly. I'm being a bit facetious. I'm being a bit cheeky. But you know what? Yes, that's a great question. I wish I'd answer you asked you that question.

Amie Andrews: Well, I hope it will be like getting the people in the room together, and maybe it's not the physical room but it might be gathering information in different places of society and building those solutions and sharing that in different ways. But I read something recently that was really interesting about how ideas create huge economic shifts. So the agricultural, industrial and technological revolutions, huge change was seen through ideas and people's ideas, communities, ideas, and I'm thinking, Well, are we now on the cusp of a nature based revolution? Whereas humans, we recognize that we are part of nature, and it's like our life. Force and our literal mother. And if we want economy and politics to even exist, then nature has got to become the kind of central valued authority, almost that's respected. And I think with the climate disasters that we're hearing about more and more frequently, you know, it has to be something that drives the economy at the end of the day, or it, you know, we won't exist. So I wonder, you know, are we on the cusp of that? And you know, are we going to see we've got the wellbeing of Future Generations Act in Wales, and now other countries are making that decision to adopt it. And, you know, I think that idea that the decisions we make today have to consider health and resilience and prosperity and everything in a holistic way is key, isn't it, to the survival of the human species. So, yeah, I think the little ideas can have massive change.

Marina Robb: Yeah. And do you think that it's, I always talk about nature allies in my work, like who around me, whether that's, you know, my colleagues or people in the NHS or education or government, you know, who around are the people that are listening and have power, because a lot of this is about power, and it can be individual power. Can't it personal power, you know, to decide to go and plant some trees or go and clean the river or whatever it might be, small actions, even just being kind to someone, is a is part of this value system, isn't it? So who are these change makers? Are you able to in the work that you hope to do? Do you think that they're there, and that they're listening and that they have the power to make changes that you're speaking about,

Amie Andrews: That's certainly the objective and the aim, and until I begin the journey, I can't know for sure, but I think there are change makers in everyone. I think, you know, people have ideas when they're invited to a conversation, and there's genuine inquisitiveness to people's perspective on issues and challenges that they face. I think if they're relevant to them, and the right questions and the right environment is available, I really hope that yeah, people will engage with that, but it's yeah, it's yet to be seen,

Marina Robb: Yeah, and I'm thinking about where we started this conversation, and also the change in our culture towards woodlands, in terms of now, we really are beginning to see the value of people's part to play in looking after the natural world, and as you say, not giving us free Reign in all these places, because we also need to approach this with care. So that's change, you know. And I'm also seeing a change in this conversation around our healthcare system, you know, and how we might be beginning to expand this medical model into a more integrative model, perhaps. And it sounds like the last bit of this conversation is potentially a change as well around issues around climate and local people. And as we come to the end, I just wonder whether you have anything to say about that, and your hopes, you've already mentioned something around that, but there anything you've learned over the last 12 years or more? No doubt that's going to help turn the dial a little bit more in favor of this deepening relationship that we as humans can have with the wider world.

Amie Andrews: I think anything that I've learned really has been about the power of working together. So throughout my career, so far, I have always felt a deep sense of together we can make change and we can make things happen. And so that is kind of it in my heart, I suppose. And what I kind of would put out there is that I think anything's possible when you value each other and you value the different functions and elements of the whole kind of system, and bring together as much of the strengths and success and celebration. As you can then, then you can achieve anything really, and I think as a human race, yeah, we can solve the problems that we have created, but it is about working together and listening to each other.

Marina Robb: Thank you so much. I really appreciated talking to you. Thank you.

Amie Andrews: Thanks, Marina.

Marina Robb: I hope this podcast leaves you feeling hopeful. I truly believe we're part of a growing community advocating for our health, social care and for political leaders to prioritize prevention over merely reacting to problems after they arise. The way forward is undoubtedly through collaboration. By bringing together the diverse skills, experiences and perspectives of people from all sectors and backgrounds, we can create more effective and inclusive solutions. Join me next week as I explore more evidence supporting outdoor learning and its vital connection to health and wellbeing of our children. See you then.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show. To stay updated with the wild mines podcast and get all the behind the scenes content. You can visit theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at the outdoor teacher UK and LinkedIn. Marina Robb,

The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb.

See you next week. Same time, same place