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(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Marina Robb: Hello, and welcome to the Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, Forest School outdoor learning and nature based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.

Welcome to season six. My guest today is David Cowell. He's managing director of ALP schools, a group of special needs educational Independent Schools funded by the local authority. These five schools are for young people between the ages of six to 19 and also 25 who have diagnosed special educational needs. In 2016 he was awarded an MBE for his contribution to vocational learning, and has spearheaded the opportunity for many schools, alongside dedicated staff to value and bring in a range of vocational and practical learning opportunities for young people. I absolutely love this. I'm delighted to start this season with a clear reminder of how so many people out there are dedicated to supporting all young people to thrive, and not just the ones who can make a mainstream environment work, we certainly need more places like these offered by Alps schools and learn from them as well. We need to consider how many positive outcomes can arise from vocational learning like animal care, mechanics, horticulture, fitness, cooking and of course, Forest School type activities. I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this conversation.

Thank you very much for joining me, David on the wild minds podcast. So we're going to start with a little bit of gratitude, as I do. And I'm going to start with my gratitude is actually that I live about 20 minutes from the sea on the south coast, and even though it's been freezing, I've been going there and swimming when I mean freezing, I mean the water's been freezing, and it's just been great. You know, I get there at the end of the day, take a dip, and I'm really grateful for that. I don't reckon everyone gets to do that. So that's my gratitude to start the podcast. How about you?

David Cowell: Well, Marina, firstly, thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm delighted to be here. And you know what? We're a bit similar. Actually. I'm going to talk a little bit today about water in the outdoors and some of our projects, but I'll just you say you like to dip in the water at the minute, I'm between my jet ski and my paddle boards, and the between the two of them, that's what keep that's my taking the jet ski out is really what burns a bit of my energy. Blow the cobwebs away, as they say. And that's my go to thing.

Marina: Oh, brilliant. I wish I lived nearer to you. That sounds like a lot of fun. So what I'm really interested in talking about today is just a lot about what you're doing, and I know that you're director of a lot of, well, a lot, in my view, it sounds like a lot. I think five or six, you'll correct me later, of independent special needs school. So I'm really interested in that. But also, before we go there, I'd really like to hear a little bit about your journey, what got you into, even being managing schools. And, you know, a little bit of your story. I've got words like police and criminology and outcomes for children. Do you want to just let us into a little bit of a story? Because I'm sure, I'm sure that's going to be some of the threads as. And why you're doing what you're doing.

David: Yeah, so I've got an interesting background. I started off doing criminology and as a my degree, and then I went in to do Applied Criminology for my master's degree. That the applied bit gave me an opportunity to actually go into a job and do some work. And I went to Warwickshire police to work in policing priority areas, which are those deprived areas that tend to have more crime rates, more deprivation. And that's where I sort of started. And once I'd finished my master's degree, I got a job working for Leicestershire police in mountain Mowbray, where I was the community initiatives coordinator. So I tended to put community initiatives together that benefited the town and hopefully reduce crime. And the first thing I did, or one of the first things I did, is I managed to get funding, which, at the time was a massive shock, I got a quarter of a million pounds of funding for an application that I put together to set up a center for alternative provision to basically help all these learners that are at school but missing school, or troublesome in school, or causing anti social behavior because they don't enjoy school. And I set up a center, which is now called alternative provision, which they're plentiful now, but at the time I did it, it was quite unique and different. So I set up an alternative provision myself, working in partnership with King Edward school at the time, but King Edward school, then there was a change in the area, and what was one comprehensive school in a small town turned into four comprehensive schools, which left my center in a bit of a question of what's going to happen to it. So I turned it into a charity called the mountain Learning Hub, and I started running alternative learning I set up more charities. And then, after 10 years of doing that, I then was headhunted, really, by ALP schools, and I made the jump over into special educational needs, which goes hand in hand, really, with those with special needs. There is a link between special needs and those who struggle with behaviors and things like that on some occasions.

Marina: Right! But before we get there. So when you were at that time, and what were we talking like, 15 20, years ago, that kind of is roughly, that is it roughly?

David: Yeah. So I've got 20 years, just over 20 years experience in this now. So when I first joined the police, I was 23 so I was working out of my own head. Now how many years? Yeah, so it's 20 years ago that I started working, set my own center for

Marina: So when you were doing that kind of research back in that time, were you seeing obvious links between, I'm assuming you're saying, like, crimes that were being committed and young people that were being disengaged in school. You're seeing that link?

David: Yeah, definitely. I did some research at the time, and the majority of what at that time, anti social behavior was a hot topic. We don't tend to hear that as much. Now, anti social behavior, we tend to categorize it in the crimes being committed. But when it was just anti social behavior, it tended to be those young people that weren't attending school, truancy, they're in town doing other things, or they were at school, but then straight away, were into the town center, where, really we've probably nothing to do, as we heard all the time, and this is why we went through lots of initiatives to give them things to do that, that took them away from it. But the reality is, they need things to do that interest them and they want to do so, yeah, there was a big bit of research done at the time, which the council and police both helped me with to work out a cost of what a learner, not in school, can cost society. And I think at the time it was around about that 200 to 250,000 mark that by the time they've gone committed crimes, gone through the court system, gone into the court system again, all because their school journey was not successful, and then they spiral into a life of crime.

Marina: So one of the things that I guess, in my work, and when we think about challenging behaviors, and things that we always think about behavior is communication. So just for a little bit, and I appreciate you know, there's a lot of complexity to the different issues going on with the young people that you might be talking about, and all young people, but could you give us a little picture of why you think those schools are not meeting the needs of the young people, or what might be going on for those young people, because you've already said, you know, wasn't interesting for them, you know. And that really matters. And I'm sure that's going to come up later in our conversation. Yeah, do you want to just speak to that a little bit, because I don't like the idea that, you know, you do something that maybe is anti social, and that's it. Your life is, you know, everything is against your life. That doesn't. It's not the society I want to live in, right? So I'd like to know a bit more.

David: Yeah, I'm a massive advocate for vocational learning. I think at the time, when I first got into this, I always used to use the analogy that putting a pen in a child's hand doesn't work for everyone, and Maths and English isn't everyone's forte. And those who really struggle with Maths and English and being forced. Forced to do it. It's part of the national curriculum, but they're doing it more than they're getting to do all the other vocational options, the ones that they enjoy, because we do mass free four times a week. We do English four times a week. But I've always said, put a pen in their hand. Sorry, take the pen out of their hand. Who's better? Give them a spade, give them a hammer, give them a makeup brush, whatever that is, a tool that gives them the opportunity to do something practical. And they're a different person, and when person. And when I set up that center, that was my initial thing. We gave every learner that came to us was doing vocational practical experience. I can remember teachers coming to our school and saying, I've come from the local school where I really struggle to deal with the learners that you're taking. So I want to see what is you're doing so different. But the reality is, we were just removing the things that they found hard and giving them the things that they're good at. We're all different, and we enjoy doing different things. So those who love being in the outdoors, those that love being under a car bonnet, those that love being with an animal, they don't have the opportunity to do that in school. So when you give them it makes a big difference. And that's what we were doing.

Marina: You see, to me, that feels like a no brainer. You know, 20 years on now, 2024 you know, to me, that just feels like a no brainer, but you're having to deal with, you know, kids are having to commit crimes for you to kind of go, hang on a second. Something's not working, right? It's out. It sounds like so, how did you get to that? Was it through research, or was it because you just had an instinct that this was kind of like, come on,

David: there was a bit of a mixed it really, I want to put the emphasis there and just drawing at this time when I worked for the mountain Learning Hub, and being in the police multi agency work was key. And so I don't want to claim here today that I come up with the idea. When I joined as community initiatives coordinator, there were some really great people working for the council, the police, the schools, who knew this could be a vision. I just brought it all together. I was that person that took their vision and made it happen. So there's loads of people I could praise along the way, but luckily, I went into Mount mobury, where there was a real we even got a prize for best partnership work between agencies who all share the vision and shared that this isn't right for everyone, and therefore, sort of lucky to have that opportunity to say, let's try a Vocational Center and see if it works. And well, it didn't. It did more than work. It was amazing. You know what the mountain Learning Hub achieved, and then went on to create more centers. So we then put it got limited to, oh, this only happens in the day, though. What about holidays? What about evenings? About evenings? What about weekends? And we went and then opened another center called the venue. We opened a cafe in mountain Country Park, which started timing into the outdoors because we ran a set. We ran the cafe in the country park, but with the students running the cafe. And then in the back of that, we put a mechanics workshop where they were working on things like lawn mowers. And so it's connected to the park and bikes so that people could go bike riding around the park. But they were doing that mechanics, and yeah, I opened just more sensors that really gave more and more opportunities, and it worked really well.

Marina: So you saw firsthand that these young people were engaged, that they were showing up. Presumably they weren't true as much. And presumably you also, I imagine, because of funding, and have done a lot of funding bids myself, that you had to sort of track somehow, that they then, yeah, didn't go back into crime. And maybe some people did, right, because it's not 100% game here, but is that what you saw? What did you see?

David: Look, you'll never win them all. That's the reality of it, but at that time, yes, by the way, we were that was a charity. So the mountain Learning Hub became a charity, and I had to apply for funding for everything I did, funding to survive for the year, funding to put on these activities I'm talking about my life was just funding bid. And then once you've got the money, it's great, but then you put in all the outputs back, and what have we achieved, and who's done this, and how many people have you engaged with? And I feel that as a team and collective, we engage with hundreds of young people who still in contact with me now, still I see, still people that I've I could give a million great stories about success stories that really changed people's lives, and you start to get the gratitude from the gratitude from the parents who recognize that. So yeah, that it we made a real difference. But of course, there's always those that it doesn't work for, or as soon as they leave that set in, the provision doesn't go on forever, and then they might rejoin the life of anti social behavior, crime, whatever, but in the majority, we won over a lot of young people and changed them for the better.

Marina: Yeah. I mean, I just really appreciate hearing that. And I also want to just name that kind of idea of shared vision, because to me, what you're speaking about actually isn't that dissimilar around, you know, bringing in outdoor learning opportunities or within education, and all of the stuff you've talked about, actually you've started to name maybe mechanics, maybe some animal care, maybe fitness, whatever it is, but bringing that also into the health sector, because actually, if you're working with young people and adults, but a. You want people to be well, not just mentally well, but also physically well. Then, in a way, you've got to bring that into the quotes, like programs, don't you?

David: 100% and that's where education's gone. Now there's a big difference. You know, education used to about knowledge and preparing people for careers, and you went to school to seek your strengths and build on your weaknesses and gain core skills. But it's bigger than that. Now, education is more about holistic education. So when you a teacher now to take on emotional, social, ethical as well as academic needs, mental health, the anxiety, you know, all that sort of stuff's built in now. So when you're doing programs, you're not just thinking, is that learner gaining knowledge from what I'm delivering them? You're thinking, is that person a better person when they go home at night? Are they sleeping better? They enjoying life more? Is that quality of life improved? And that's how education's gone. It's very different.

Marina: Would you say then, in your view, that it's like purpose of education now for you, where you're sitting,

David: Definitely now with it's always been that, but more emphasis now, because I've made a step from working more with those in antisocial behavior since I joined ALP schools in 2016 the focus is more on special educational needs, and the collective amount of needs that we As a school deal with is huge. It's more recognized. And every learner is individualized. You don't now group them and say, I feel like we're doing this as a collective. That individual has had that specific intervention and has made things better for them. That learner came to us and engaged in these subjects, which made school easier. They're able to cope, and then they're able to flourish. And I suppose one of the key things our values in our school now is that teaching actually comes last for us in before teaching, it's all about building up their attendance, their routine, relationships, respect for their environment coming into school, respect for each other. Then it becomes trust in everything, trust in the teachers, trust in the environment, trust in their peers, and then when they're ready to learn, then comes teaching, and that's what we're building up first. And that's an important message.

Marina: It's a really important message. And it kind of makes me think about where what you need to have in place before you can even start thinking about the head knowledge, because knowledge is in multiple ways, isn't it? It's not just the head. What you might learn, like math and English, all the other things as well. But before we go there, I keep saying this with you, because I can see we can go in so many different ways. I just want to acknowledge that you were given an MBE, won't you recognize your vocational training? And you might be bit I don't know if you're shy about that, but I think that's really, I didn't even really know what an MBE is, but I think would you just say what it is? Because, of course, it, you know, feels like this is the kind of part of recognition that's out now and also taking you to where you are now, which I'd love to talk about in a minute.

David: Yeah, sure. So I, you know, ran the mountain Learning Hub as a charity for 10 years, and in that time, I've lost count the amount of young people that came through, but it became a significant part of mountain Mowbray, as in the town, the community and Princess Anne was doing a visit to the college at one point, and she then asked the Council, where else should I visit in the afternoon? And the council recommended that they come to the mountain Learning Hub at that time. And we had the royal visit, which was a very special and memorable day. And on the back of that, a lady called Pam Posner, who was an advocate for youth and was the youth councilor in the town, put in a recommendation unbeknown to me that was at the time, and I remember, never forget, the day that through the door came a letter from the Prime Minister to say that I'd been selected for to become a member of the British Empire, which is what the MBA stands for. And yeah, that led to the special day at Buckingham Palace where I was given an MBE for my contribution to vocational education. And luckily, received that off. Who was the prince at the time is now King. So it's, yeah, very special day, and something I'm very proud of. And yeah, it's important to me.

Marina: Yeah, I would be really proud of that too. That's, really something else. And also, obviously you, I know you'd be thinking of what that meant to the young people, that what you know reflects the work that's been going on with the young people that really matters. So let's bring us up to date. So we so your director of can you tell me if it's five or six independent Go and tell me

David: it's five independent schools. But then we have another provision, which is really important for the chat today, because we've got a completely Outdoor School, which we call the lodge, which isn't registered as its school in its own right. It's a shared facility, but it's become so big now that I sort of. Class it as a school in its own right. So I've got five schools and the lodge, which is an outdoor provision.

Marina: So how does somebody get to do that? Because I think I know I want to talk about all the outdoor stuff, but I also want to understand, because in my career, it always seemed important that, what is the head teacher? What is the director thinking? Because obviously, they direct, don't they? How things are prioritized in school. So I'd quite like to understand, first, how you're funded, because that's going to be a question that's going to come up, isn't it? And also, yeah, what's your role? and how do you kind of support the management, because we always, because people, like outsiders, like me, even though I used to be a primary school teacher, was, you know, it's all about who? Yeah, how are they making decisions? And then we'll get into that. Is that okay?

David: Yeah, sure. So, first of all, I was lucky enough to inherit three schools at the start, because Philip HOPPEN brothers, who's the founder, set up ALP schools, and that when he brought me in, he wanted to retire, basically, so I took over three schools and put a lot in place to bring those schools to where they are today, and not about three years into my journey, sort of started thinking, we can Open more over the years, not because of wanting more workload, more to do, but there's so many young people out there who need provision that we provide. So to go into other areas and develop schools was a passion. So the first so we've got a school. We've got three schools in Kent which are in Gravesend, Welling and sitting born and I've got two in the Midlands, which are Leicester and Nuneaton. So the Nuneaton was my hometown, so as that was the first school I opened, once I took over the business, and then we opened, more recently, the sitting born school, and then even more recently, the largely outdoor provision. So I've got head teacher in all of those schools. We're independent schools, which means we take learners who have, for some reason, either dropped out or struggling in mainstream school, usually always due to their special educational needs, and a number of other factors that can contribute to that as well. And therefore the local authority for provide the funding for each individual, and we're able then to take that young person into school. They every learner we work with is on an educational health care plan, so they've got a diagnosis, and we work with their needs, and they'll wrap around support for them. So my job really is grow it, grow in the company, and making sure the business is okay, checking in on, obviously, my head teachers to make sure everything's going well and creating the educational opportunities that we provide.

Marina: And I hear kind of like business and schools, because, again, it feels like it feels a change in my lifetime, you know, around business and schools and so your job is to, yeah, obviously, make sure it works financially, like any institution needs to do, I guess, right, but it's with a particular focus. So how do you do interview the head teachers? What kind of people are you looking for? Because I often wonder about that again, like, where did these teachers start? Because we, you know, as teachers, we go through, what do you call it teacher training? And then we might, we probably inherit all sorts of ideas about education, and then you you're getting these head teachers. So yeah, without dropping yourself in it, around head teachers who aren't traditionally your kind of people that get, you know, get children that have different needs, and I've not seen not just talking about, you know, diagnosed needs and also talking about other kinds of needs. So how do you approach that? How do you interview I mean, what kind of people do you want?

David: So at the minute, I'm very lucky, because I've got five amazing head teachers that are and that's important, actually, for any business growth. The person leading it is that the person who's making sure that the vision and the value of the school is embedded every learner and every staff member is hugely important. So yeah, five great headteachers at the minute who have been recruited through different ways. Really we have been lucky enough to attract people who wanted a job change, people who have had enough of the mainstream sector, but we've also developed those. One of my head teachers started with us as a Learning Support Assistant 12 years ago, you know, and has gone from that to becoming a head teacher with all the qualifications to go with it. So there's a bit of a mix, really. And that goes for all of our staff in terms of we are. Look, not every teacher wants to work in special educational needs or in behavior schools, and that is because there are teachers out there that don't want to go from a lovely class of 20 to 30 students that, in general engage and enjoy to a tricky and complex environment where, even though we might say we teach in small groups of four. Those four can be far more complex and a harder experience, and sometimes they have days where they don't want to engage in any learning at all. So you need some resilience. Is massive importance in the job that we do. We train up, though, as well. So we do take people who are vocationally minded, sometimes who have come from they've got occupational competency and what they've done, and then they come to us wanting to become a teacher. So through the apprenticeship Levy, through the government at the minute, we are able to put staff onto pathways to get there. First of all, their level three in teaching and learning, then their level five in teaching, and then hopefully, then they go on to QTS. So at one stage, I would have joined this conversation today and told you, actually it's more important to have people that are just good at working with this type of young people, and I still believe in that, but they also need that teaching experience to get with the companies come on a journey, and teaching is as important as being able to bond with that young people, the young person and get on with them as well. So the combination of having the right skills but and the right attitude to be able to work with these young people is vital.

Marina: And that's interesting, because, you know, teaching, in a way, it's bigger than a delivery of a subject, isn't it? And you started saying about holistic you know, your vision is around, I think you said seeing the child as a whole person. So presumably, yeah, they're starting, they need to see the whole person and think about all the other things you said, you know, like you said teaching comes last, which isn't, you know, so we're kind of looking at interested in teachers, but yet teaching comes last, and yet all that other stuff that you mentioned, you said attendance, I wrote it down because I couldn't remember it. Routines, relationships, presumably, the people that you're working with really have to really get that and the importance of that. And I wonder maybe we could look at the importance of those different things, because I think we forget that actually, when we're running groups and holding spaces, the sort of things you've just mentioned are actually critical. It sets the scene, doesn't it?

David: For any teaching 100% you know, teachers have to juggle so many balls at the moment, and what I mean by that they've got to have consideration for every learners, well being that, as well as wanting to think about their own career progression, taking on additional responsibilities, making sure that the learners are engaged in their lesson. So they need to have such a wide and broad range of skills. And then the even bigger skill then is to when you're working with special educational needs, is to know what support is required for every young person that's sitting in front of you. And that in itself, is a huge task, because you can just say the smallest of things that trigger a young person to then not conform in your class, or not meet their behavior, or you can have something not prepared right for them, that they might need, or that there might be a smell in the room that they can't cope with, there might be the person next to them that they can't deal with. There's so many and you have to think, well, I know I've only got four learners in my lesson. I've got the great lesson prepared. But am I now ready to take on these four young people who have stepped into my classroom so and then you've got to take on all the other factors that, how are they feeling that day? And we do things like emoji boards so that the minute they walk into the door, we've got our smart boards, and they might stick an emoji on saying they're happy, or they might have a sad face or an angry face, and then straight away, your dynamics of your lesson have changed completely. When two of them have come in and put a sad or angry face on the board, and you're like, Okay, so then you're utilizing the Learning Support within that classroom to help and meet the needs. So, yeah, I don't know if I went off track a bit there, but answer, answering that the complexity of teaching these days, and especially teaching the special needs setting, it's huge.

Marina: No, I don't think you did. I think you talking like you said, about the complexity, but also thinking about what's going to interest in them, what's engaged. And it's also that relationship, I guess I'm speaking to like you talk about trust and relationship, but all those things take time, and they need the right kind of dynamic. And it's from that place that perhaps you start to get the outcomes that we originally talked about it, you know, like people's well being increased there, because I love you said in and I don't know if I can remember where you said it, but on your website, you talk about, you know, the best for everybody. I know you didn't, you said it in a particular way, and I can't find it in front of me. But that the ideas that it, you know, that this experience really meets their needs, but also really lets them thrive, you know? And to do that, you've got to know you've got to know them, haven't you? You've got to get to know them.

David: It's what we call individualized learning, and many people think that means we're going to, you know, give them, Oh, you don't. Like English, where you're not going to take it, you know, when you've got no English at all. But it's not about that at all. It's about if that person, the school, is not good because of subjects like math English, which is happens, sometimes it's about, how do you embed that into the lessons? So how? And we're going to talk about it in the outdoors. You know, if we want to teach maths in the outdoors, we're going to measure tree. You know, what's the height of that tree? Well, how can you measure a height of a tree? I don't know, because I'm not getting up there to take measure at you. But actually, if you problem solve, and you get some string, and we're going to throw it up, and all of a sudden that lesson's become interesting and engaging, and we've individualized it for that learner who hates maths, but actually you've just been in the outdoors, you've measured something, you've done something. So our individualized learning is about smaller groups. It's about meeting. It's wraparound support that they need, but everyone's wraparound support is different, and that isn't only those young people with special education needs. That's that society everyone learns in different ways and needs different approaches to understand them, to remember more when they're in the lessons as well.

Marina: Yeah. So I'm really interested in mainstream and how we can learn from this, but I don't want to go there and be too distracted, because I do want to talk about what you've been saying about the app. It's out Lodge, isn't it? Is that because that's where we connected, isn't it around outdoor learning and how we can, you know, bring that into general schools, but also the lodge. So tell me about how you do create outdoor curriculums, you know, at the lodge and a little bit of, I love that example about, you know, here's maths, but we don't have to teach it that way. We might teach it through, yeah, measuring trees. Do you want to just speak to that?

David: Yeah, so outdoor curriculum, so this has become a passion of mine, but I'm not I've got a great team of people at the lodge that are now developing this and making it happen. So I'll probably plug a few people on this bit to make sure that it's not me doing this. I've created an opportunity, and some other people are making it happen. But outdoor curriculum. We our three schools in Kent lack outdoor space, and I've known that in the 10 years that I've come into this company, and I know it's not good. At break time, at lunchtime, some of our students need outdoors. They need to run around. They need to burn off some energy. I'm not going to say this quote was mine, but somebody once said to me, or on a podcast that I heard, they said, if the kids are bouncing off the walls, remove the walls. And it stayed with me, because that's true, even 10 minutes, five minutes in the outdoors, burning off energy, not having walls, not having ceilings, not feeling enclosed, feeling your own space, they can go back into a lesson and feel completely refreshed. So outdoor space was important, but our three schools suffered with not having enough outdoor space. Our schools in the Midlands didn't have that problem, so it was more Kent where we focused on that. So we were very lucky. One of my staff members, Kelly Butler, who now runs the lodge she had access to an amazing outdoor space. So saying falling on your feet would be a complete example. I've now got a bespoke and we now rent this place, but it's bespoke for ALP schools. And I'm going to try and give you a picture of what it looks like, but in a descriptive way. So on that outdoor space, we have got a huge woodland area. And I mean huge woodland there, we've got a huge grass field, and in that, we have now put animal care. So we've got our own and the students are building the environment, by the way. So when we started with, you know, off Amazon pens, we're now building a proper duck environment that built with the outdoor, you know, going and finding the wood and building the fences with the wooden elements we get. And we've got chickens. We've got a giant toy, toys, which is an amazing thing. We've got a parrot there. There's a dog on site. There's so guinea pigs. We're doing some breeding programs. So we've got animal care on there. The huge thing, we've got an outdoor swimming pool, which, wow. We started this off by saying, you know, your release in life is to have a dip in the water. And I said, mine's to travel on the water, but I want to bring that in, because the water is an outdoor feature that not many people you know, we might have a pond, and we do pond dipping and that sort of stuff. But having a swimming pool is life changing for those students, because we've taught this year. Kelly is now a swimming instructor through the in covid, there was a lack of swimming instructors because all we closed down all the pools, and they had to get new jobs. So there was initiative by the Swimming Association to train people up. And we took advantage of that, and Kelly became a swimming instructor. We've got an outdoor pool heated, so she's now helping young people to swim. And you'd be surprised how many young people can't swim. And this year, we've managed to get I think she was telling me the other day that this sort of 10 learners who have gone from literally scared to get off the side and into the pool. Also now being competent swimmers. So we've got swimming pool, we've got an outdoor kitchen. We've then created two amazing outdoor shelters where they've got the fire pits, and they've got, you know, they're doing their own food, so cooking has become a big part of it. We've got a workshop for woodwork, which we had a donation from a company that is local, that wanted to donate into something where you're not just given funding, they actually help, and they see the difference they made, and they donated us all our well is the right clothing for students, the tools so everyone's got the gardening things that they need, and tools to go out and do what we're doing. Yeah. So that's a bit of a picture. And then we've got some huts that in each hut these activities. So we have got some down a downtime area. But then we've also got an area where we're doing creative craft. And so, because I'm not saying we're completely outdoor, the reality is, we're putting the learners in the outdoor, but we have got a couple of, we call them shacks or hubs or, you know, wouldn't they're not a building. You'd see in on a traditional, you know, in the street. Should we say they're an outdoor type of building. But the reality is, we face the elements outside, and not every student's happy to be stood out in the absolute pouring rain. Or some love it, don't they? It's snow, rain, whatever. We've got the right clothing to get them out there, but now and again, there is the little indoor environment on site, fair enough.

Marina: I mean, I'm the same, right? You know, good to be out, but it's all right to be in sometimes, definitely.

David: So I gave you the picture of what the lodge looks like. So in terms of curriculum, we have, Gemma Evans is our forest school lead. So she is doing the outdoor teaching. Kelly's trained up through the outdoor teacher yourself and your confidence to show she's got a massive Paloma skills that she's putting forward and in general, there that your typical Forest School type activity, outdoor learning. So they're doing woodland craft, your environmental skills, nature, observing den, building fire skills, tool skills, they're covering the whole you know, they're getting the opportunity to do everything and developmental as well. So if they learn something in a basic it's about them doing an advanced and then doing it independently as well. So it's not just, oh, one time we're going to light a fire, it's you're going to learn it from the ground up, and then you're going to be able to do this independently, on your own, and do this many times. So then we're trying to get all our students qualifications. So it's not just about the older ones. We've got primary and secondary in our schools, which I probably didn't, didn't explain, and post 16, so they're all at different stages in their journey at the outdoor curriculum, but we've got cooking qualifications, land based qualifications, animal care based qualifications. We're now moving over to what AQa awards as well, which is an accreditation body, which is a they've got areas, sort of conservation and nature, craft skills, environmental studies, gardening and horticulture, outdoor activities, and then having pets or keeping farm animals in the wildlife, those sort of activities as well. The swimming is qualifications, so learners aren't they might just be learning to swim, but they are going on to actually certificated in a proper course, which is through the safety training awards. So they're learning life skills as well as learning to swim. And finally, we've roped in the Duke of Edinburgh. So they were some of our post. 16 learners are doing their Duke of Edinburgh awards, all based in the outdoor activity where they get to do volunteering, learn physical skills and go on residential. So on Thursday and Friday of this week, my students from Leicester are coming to the outdoor provision in Kent to have their first camping experience. It's the first time we've done this, so a little bit nervous, but I'm hoping that we're just taking a group of five to start off with. And yeah, they're gonna have the opportunity to camp out, enjoy the swimming pool, have some downtime, do some forest activity. So yeah, and then I just wanted to pick up on one final error on the curriculum, which is PSHE. So we try and teach PSHE in the outdoors as well. So we work with a company called jigsaw, and we this year, we were awarded the jigsaw School of the Year Award for our approach to how we deliver PSHE, but we make sure all of our learners are having,

Marina: Will you say what PSHE is? Because not everybody will know.

David: So it's physical health and social education. So learners, and to break that down, learners are doing learning six different categories. So it's about being me and my world. It's celebrating difference, dreams and goals, healthy me, relationships and changing me. So I'm just going to give you a few examples of what we might do. So being me in my world, we might teach about the importance of recycling, and we go into our local area and do a little pick for example that helps the environment when we're talking about changing me. So how do we grow up? We're learning about the. To me, but we're building skeletons out of sticks. So we're going into the woods and we're foraging and we're finding sticks, we're building skeleton, and then we're understanding, how do we go from because we'll have someone building a small skeleton and someone building a bigger scale, and how do we get from this to this in terms of our life? When we talk about being healthy, we're growing, you know, students are growing different fruit and veg, and we're having that, you know, they're getting the chance to eat that. I went up to the lodge the other day, and I was blown away, actually, because they'd foraged out of flour. They had heated it up and done the, you know, sieved it and got it all right, but then they'd made out of flour ice lollies, which I was honestly someone one of the things about working in education that we do a lot of food, and sometimes the students give you food and you like not another bit. Where am I going to put this? Is there? A bit handy? Honestly. It was a sunny, beautiful day. The game is out of follower Lolly, and I couldn't believe that they'd made it themselves. The taste sensation that hit me when I had it was amazing.

Marina: They'll be selling it. They'll be selling it. Improbability sort of thing, yeah.

David: So I could go on for ages with a PSA in the outdoors, but we're trying to teach our curriculum in the out. There's so many things you can do in the outdoors. As you know, I'm preaching the converted, but,

Marina: Yeah you are. But you know, what I love about it is that every single person can bring something to the table as an idea. Like, for example, I've never thought about doing the sticks and the skeleton. What a brilliant idea. You know. And I just think there's more and more and more. And also asking the young people, they're going to have all these ideas too, aren't they about how to do it? And I'm really very, very inspired, and I guess, well, tell me about what you're seeing with the young people, then we know, how are they doing from this experience?

David: Yeah, the difference is huge. And look, having outdoor learning in itself has made a difference, and that regardless of everything I've just said about how we're delivering it, just having a swimming pool in the field and the woods to run in to let off some steam helps with children with special educational needs. But the difference is, you know, all of our learning to the lodge has become so successful in year one, when we introduced it was quite it was fairly quiet. Learners went up in sporadically to engage a bit. Now, all three schools in the Kent area are fully engaged in the lodge. We've had to do a timetable of when they can be there. And we do what we call carousel learning. So a learner will go up for half a day or a full day, and they will have time and all those elements I've just said. So they might start with the animal care tutor, and then they might do some craft, and then they go into forest school, and what is calming students, it's upskilling students. It's embedding knowledge in some of our students, it's giving them opportunities that they never thought they would have and that we as a school, could not provide before. And if I'm honest, it's a wow factor in our curriculum we've just got. We had an Ofsted visit for our new school in sittinbourne, and we got an outstanding for personal social development, and that was very much attributed to that outdoor offer that we're able to offer that school. It was a wow factor. And the offset inspector said at the time, We'd only been open 11 months, and she said, I've never before have I on any of the offset inspector she knows, given outstanding to a school that's only been open 11 months, but what you're providing for these learners in terms of their personal social development, is what it says on the tip, you know, it's outstanding.

Marina: So that's amazing.

David: It's making a huge difference.

Marina: That is amazing. So what would you say, then to people, to head teachers, what would you say to kind of encourage them to make some first steps, because sounds like you've like you said you were lucky enough to have a site that has a pool, and, of course, a lot of, well, I imagine Special Educational schools, let alone mainstream schools, don't access that. So how can we move the dial, turn the dial, make it possible with your experience? Because, you know, it didn't always have all of that, right? And you've given a lot of examples of different things that can engage students. What would you be saying to, you know, head teachers, leaders, I guess it's the leaders as well here that need to believe it's possible, right?

David: Yeah. I mean, that's a big question, because I know reality is, I'm an advocate for alternative education or doing things differently, but I'm also not. I'm not deluded to realize that mainstream school is vital and suits most young people. But there is this. I'm going to give some stats now. Look, there's 18.4% of children England have got some form of special education or need now, and that's risen from. That's a 2024 stat. And the rise from last academic year in 2023 was from 17.3% so we've gone up 1.1% now, that sounds small, 1.1% 1.1% Equates to 100,000 children. Wow, okay, in the educational system so and one of the other things that I think is vital and does need addressing is that those stats only include the young people that have actually got an official diagnosis. And an official diagnosis is hard to get, as we all know, so they're saying that there is a mass of students and NASA, and it's that the National Association of Special Educational Needs is saying that there's been a seven, 7% increase in, actually, the amount of children that are undiagnosed but still struggling, sitting in mainstream. So we have to have alternative approaches. Money is a factor, isn't it? You know, we can't, you know, I bet every head teacher out there wants to do something different, but it's about looking at what you've got, facilities wise and staff. And I think that's how I've grown. We're not magic. Everyone would love the opportunity for every student to go off for a day in the outdoor provision, but they've also got to balance that with all these things we talked about earlier, about making sure they get their maths, their English, their science, their languages there and so on and so forth. So there's a balance. So it's about making sure in each setting you know who needs what, provision and offering that individualized support, which sometimes can mean utilizing Learning Support Assistance well within school. But it's also doing a skills audit in your own setting. What have I got? Have I got any staff that can offer me something different? Have I got an environment that offers me something different and that can be, you know, at the bottom of the school field, is there something there? Have we got something on site that we're not utilizing? Have we got a room that's hardly used, that actually can become something vocational, something different, that can give opportunities to young people that we didn't have. We haven't got a magic wand, but I bet if we did it, if all leaders did a bit of a school's a skills audit and an assessment of what they have got on their site, and yeah, and using alternative provisions is important, but in the right setting, you know that means we can go out and send a group of 10 horse riding in the week, because it breaks up their week and what we shouldn't be doing. So it's not only about what we should be doing that these learning curves. One thing that is really annoying is when we give things that learners need. For example, we send them out. We send 10 of our learners from mainstream school to a mechanics provision because they love it. We do it on a Wednesday because it breaks their week up. But then when they behave badly on a Monday, the first taken off them is mechanics on a Wednesday, which is not the purpose. It is not the purpose of what it is. So there's learning curves there as well about it's not a reward to go mechanics. It's what that young people needs. It's what. So, yeah,

Marina: I've totally I get that. You know, it's that punishment, reward thing that we're well, like you say, it's a need. It's not about taking something away. It's that doesn't work, and it doesn't build on, you know, all the positive experiences that you're that they're having as well, isn't it definitely amazing. And, oh God. And I'm wondering, like, how you know, if you could ask, what help do you need to expand this vision? Then what do you need to make a you know, because I'm think people will listen to this and go, Well, maybe they want to help because I, again, even though it's hard and people it's hard to generate income, like you said, all the funding things and everything else, but you also spoke to a couple of very local things that people did, right? They came along and they they've helped build your wood workstation or provide the hammers. I also get donations often for like, saws and, you know, little things, but they make a difference, don't they? Is there anything that you need? That's a big question.

David: Always, is in education, and sometimes that's time, you know, time what we love to have volunteers if the right person comes along. We love people sitting on our governing body to help with the governance of the schools. We love companies that come to us and say, I think we can help. And you know, we've had some great examples of companies coming to us and approaching us for help. So there's always something that people can do, but you know, it's not, it's very, very bespoke. You know, we are in a we have to consider safeguarding and all the other factors that come along. So it's not that simple. And also, I just want to probably say that schools like ours, we have a lot of people approach us about coming to the school, and the reality is, the school is funded by the local authority. People have to go for a long process to get into our school. I just want to make that clear. It's a frustrating process as well for those parents that know their child would be better in a school like ours, but the reality is, they have to jump through many hoops to get there, and that's because the local authority will always and quite rightly, they've got limited budgets, and they will make sure they're maintained special schools that they own themselves are full before they consult with someone like us as an independent school. But we have got waiting. As well. We're very small school. I didn't say that at the start, but each of our schools is somewhere between 35 and 50 learners, so we're not massive, and it's hard to get in. But going back to what you said, yeah, there's always something governance has been really hard for us to build up as a school. So those who come to me say I wouldn't mind volunteer, and I've always check and I'll always check and see if they could sit on our governing body as well, and that helps. So there's always something that people can do, and if I take this opportunity to plug so I'll give an example, if that's okay,

Marina: Please do that.

David: Looking for new opportunities as well. We struggle to get, we don't really get funding as an independent school, because we are a limited company, but some companies are able to fund so our next venture this year is going to be all about paddle sport and stand up paddleboarding. So we have been very lucky to get funding off paddle UK to start up a special educational needs paddleboarding hub, which initially is going to be for our learners, but over time, we're going to open that up as an additional curriculum activity for others in the local area to come. We're very blessed in Kent to have the seaside upon us, as well as lakes and things around us where we can do this. In Leicester, we've got a lovely canals that run through and lots of places we can take students to do paddleboarding. So yeah, we've just received this money. I'm in the process of training up seven staff members at the moment to all become paddle board instructors. And our residential this week, on Friday, we're taking out our first five students to do their first ever lesson in paddle sport. So there's always something and an interesting twist or something that we can do. So the outdoors, to me, is more than just it's more than just that. We associate it to the woodland, don't we, and we go back to that question. He said, what can other schools do? What can people learn? And it's not always about what can you do on your site? It's about what's out there. Go and explore the our communities and being on the water is great. So we've just learned how to do what we call a paddle journey. So that is where we take our students along the canal. But we talk about the environment around us, so we stop in and we're saying, right, look over there, you know, and telling them what's growing, what are we going through? You know that we went through the other day, and there was some of the trees and the fruit that we go and pass that nobody else can get to because it's not on a footpath or but on the canal, it's just there and growing on the side. So we stop and have a conversation about that, but they're learning how to paddle at the same time, which is amazing, and it's a bit of a thrill. And yeah, look, then we all jump in the water and go crazy.

Marina: So you'd like people, what to support you to make that more possible? What with equipment money?

David: Yeah, that at the minute, we need help with volunteers, for help for the public. I've just, we're just in the process of becoming associated paddle Sport Club, which is very different. And I've literally started when I'm training up staff to be paddle board instructors. But I actually need, yeah, volunteers for that. I need people. We want to start doing that at maybe weekends and evenings, and so the more I can build the club, and that means I have to have a treasure, a chair. It's all those bits of secretaries, all those bits behind the scenes that you don't think have to happen to be a unassociated club. And this is new to me as well, because I've been a school, but now we were going to paddle sport hub, so yeah, that's an opportunity that I'm going to be promoting.

Marina: Very exciting. I mean, you've also got my, you know, my thinking going around the foraging in the river, you know, along the rivers and along the canals, because that, you know that your kids are into doing elderflower cordial or whatever, or, well, lollipops, that's another level up. But, you know, there's all kinds of plants that could be understood harvested, made that connection to because, yeah, I mean I'm so pleased that I got to talk to you, it's been really interesting and very inspiring, and I hope you have some time to go out and play yourself, because, you know, you got a lot on

David: I'm on annual leave, taking two weeks next week, so I'm looking forward to a bit of downtime as well.

Marina; Yeah, of course, everybody needs it. Yeah. Thanks so much. David, really appreciate your time.

David: It's been an absolute pleasure Marina speaking to that and keep all the great work that you do and driving forward outdoor learning, because it's essential.

Marina: Thank you.

I feel really uplifted by this conversation, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the paddleboard project and how this facilitates learning about the natural world, the plants and the trees. Didn't it sound amazing having listened to and read more about the rise in special educational needs in our schools, it really makes me think about it's not just the. Ones that are diagnosed, there's all the others that are not diagnosed, and it makes me think about we need more learning opportunities so that more young people have a fair chance of living a healthy and fulfilling life. So join me next week when I discuss more about these issues and offer some ideas that can have a positive impact for young people and staff. See you next week.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show. To stay updated with the wild mines podcast and get all the behind the scenes content. You can visit theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at the outdoor teacher UK and LinkedIn. Marina Robb,

The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb.

See you next week. Same time, same place