Transcript

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(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Marina Robb: Hello, and welcome to the Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, Forest School outdoor learning and nature based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.

Welcome to today's episode, listening to the wild world, I'm thrilled to introduce my guest, Rebecca wild bear. Rebecca is the author of wild yoga, a book that guides us to inhabit our bodies and listen to the Animate natural world. She tracks dreams invites us to embrace vulnerability, listening deeply to nature, and to be open to what arises. Rebecca holds an MS in counseling from John Hopkins University and spent 15 years working as a wilderness therapist. She's also a professional river guide Captain boats through pristine fish build rivers. With over 20 years of experience working with dreams, Rebecca has been a soul guide, animus Valley Institute since 2006 In the US, where she now serves as a senior guide. She's a whistleblower of plant consciousness, and a listener to the voices of non-dominant cultures. Her work blends personal growth with environmental and social justice. And she supports us to develop strategies so that we can support the health of the wild world for future generations of all species.

So in today's conversation, we'll be talking and suggesting practices to explore our relationship with nature, also to consider our grief for what is happening to our precious Earth and find joy and strength in nature's teachings. Join us as we delve into living different stories.

So welcome, Rebecca to the wild minds Podcast. I'm just super grateful that you're here and giving me your time. So thank you so much.

Rebecca Wildbear: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

Marina: Yeah. So I always start with gratitude. And what is feeling really right for me at the moment is just to be grateful for breath, because I could see and feel myself breathing. And taking a deep breath before we started. And actually I saw you also take a breath. And I really recognize that for me. Yeah, breathing, as I've got older actually really helps me to calm myself and to be more present. And I think I'm learning to breathe. So I'm super grateful to be able to breathe. Yeah, I have my lungs doing that for me at this time. And would you be okay to share some gratitude as well?

Rebecca: Yeah, I will continue with that idea of breathing. It is taking being able to take a deep breath is such a wonderful. Ah, it's a wonderful thing to just give ourselves permission, take a deep breath, whatever it is. Sometimes in my yoga classes, I say, notice if it feels better to breathe or hold your breath. Because sometimes, you know, we just hold our breaths. I do it. So yeah, I'm grateful to have this pause to breathe and arrive here with you. Thank you.

Marina: Yeah, thank you as well. So I feel it I feel honored to be speaking to you because I haven't known you for very long. And you actually were one of the tutors on a course that I just did a little while ago, which was called prayers in the dark. But I've read a little bit more about you and I've been listening to some of your podcasts and I've been reading your book. And I feel and you probably don't even what you're probably not even going to say this about yourself but I feel you've lived a long full interesting In a way, very unusual life. And I feel like there's so much that I want to ask you about. So, for me, there's this kind of thing about the world being alive, right? That's one thing is like, the world is alive. And I remember hearing about that a while ago, you know, when I was studying about the environment about the well being alive, and it being what does that mean? And having listened to you? And kind of, yeah, read more, I'm really curious about what that means to you. If when I say the world's alive, what do you mean by the world is alive?

Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, you know, nature is alive, that would be, that's a great thing, if we could even just connect to the reality that nature is alive. Sometimes with humans, it's like, we believe were the main ones alive, or the most intelligent, one that's alive. And then, yeah, you know, animals are alive to some degree, but not maybe not as conscious as us. But that's often and then maybe trees and plants and, but, you know, if we think about the world is alive, we can really think of that more animate view of the natural world, that everything's alive, and maybe has a reality that we don't fully understand, in fact, maybe is more intelligent than us, if we can, if we look at some living organisms that create, insist, you know, in ways in their community that are sustainable, are truly sustainable and lasting and caring of one another, that certainly looks intelligent. So I mean, that the natural world is alive, I mean, that rocks are alive and thunderstorms are alive. And then we can even move out to the sun and the cosmos, and the planetary and the stars, and maybe worlds that we don't even know are alive. And then we can even wonder about worlds like the dream world. You know, the dream beings is that alive, and we can wonder about the unseen world, you know, people talk about all sorts of possible unseen realities that people have experienced. So, I mean, I would say that the world is a mystery also, and we don't fully understand the world and all the worlds and all the things that are alive, but there's a whole lot more life in the world, and potentiality to connect with that life, and that life, being intelligent, and we're unable to be in relationship with it. And it gives us guidance, even in that relationship than far more than mainstream culture. acknowledges, or then science acknowledges. The world is alive is far more alive than we're aware of, than most people are aware of.

Marina: So I feel like in a way, I straddle the kind of main stream. And then I'm really curious about this idea of being able to and not just idea it's direct experience of messages coming and you know, arriving and intuitions and things like that. But I also want to just before we dive into that kind of thing, I mean, I was listening to Judi Dench, who in England is quite a well known woman who talks who loves trees. And she was saying, you know, wow, trees are alive, you know, that you can put a stethoscope to the trees, and I remember this from quite a while ago, you can put a stethoscope to a tree, and you can hear the water pumping up and that's alive. But I, I really know that we're talking about something different here. We're not just talking about biological aliveness. That here we are, you know, everything's kind of working. We're talking, as you mentioned, already, this word consciousness. And, I'm really not tentative, but kind of like, I know that it can be, I can already say the word like a bit ridiculed. What do you mean that plants are going to, you know, talk to you or that a rock has consciousness, but I'm really also want to take it really seriously. Because I've also, you know, read and experience different things from other cultures and I am curious as to why it does feel such an edge for this dominant culture. You know, why is this such an edge, that there is potential for consciousness in rocks and trees and plants? Well, I wonder what you think about that

Rebecca: You know, if we saw the living world is animate, if we saw the natural world as animate, it would change, it wouldn't mean the need to change our way relating to it, which would, I think be a major change from the way we're living? And so that might be hard. You know, we have a human's right now interact with the natural world or the culture or the mainstream culture interacts in a way of dominion, and kind of right to, you know, own or destroy, even to build something, you know, like. And I mean, there's a few countries that are coming in to the rights of nature and actually granting nature rights as a living being. But that's very few. And if we thought of the wild world as a living being, it would mean radically changing our relationship to it in the way that we interacted in the way that we lived. So I think that might be one reason. Another reason, I think, sometimes is that, you know, humans get comfortable in their own minds in their own ways of thinking, and it can get hard to change that ways of thinking and be open to another possibility. And what might it say, if I opened to that relationship? You know, we often choose relationships where that our comfortable, where people might have similar beliefs in us or say similar things as us. And if we really open to this radically different being than us, and listening to what they might say, what might they say? And how could that? What could that change about the way we see ourselves or the world or live and even that can be scary,

Marina: it makes me think about children a lot. And I often mention this, because when you work with children, you experience that they don't objectify things, and the people are natural in natural beings, very much that everything becomes a subject. And in that sense, everything is part of this kind of, to and fro. And it's there seems to be a quality as children that we lose a lot in the modern world, you know, that we stop relating, and we start to see everything, as a kind of fixed object that doesn't have an aliveness that doesn't have a vitality that doesn't have its own essence, I suppose. It's hard to know, because I feel so involved in the modern world, that I don't know whether it's being done to me or that it's happened for just so long, that I've lost, you know, that knowing,

Rebecca: yeah, I move back and forth, sometimes between spending lots of time in the wild world as a guide a lot. Or we're out by myself and then also definitely living as part of this culture. And it's a very strange mix to live in the natural world and commune with the natural world is alive and then come back and interact with the culture in the way that it's living. It's strange phenomena.

Marina: So how can we grow that capacity? Do you think because it seems to me that if as you said if we could really encounter and meet the world, with this aliveness with this deep other of respect, yeah, that would really change things so you've been doing guiding wilderness guiding and soul guiding for a long time? What are the some of the things that we can do them to actually grow this capacity do you think?

Rebecca: Well, one is to begin to experience our own bodies as wild as natural as animal as part of nature, you know, we're made up of a lot of the same cells and materials as Earth and other animals. And yet we have these minds that you know, bring us in this other place, but if we could drop back down out of our minds and connect into our animal body, sometimes being in nature really can help that just immersing in nature for a long time. As long as you can, you know, could be you could be just an afternoon are several days and or moving in your body yoga practices, do it dance practices, but like beginning to just experience your body you know, kind of coming out of your mind, losing your mind and coming into your body is a great way to start to feel your wildness and also beginning to spend time in nature to look around and see who the others are, you know, to just watch and see, I think a lot of people are naturally drawn to nature even if they don't believe that nature is alive or anything like that. And I might my guess is something in us feels like I'm around healthy beings. You know, we naturally gravitate to life that's healthy, whether it's healthy friendships or nature. It's like Wow, I feel like I can be myself here. I can take a deep breath in nature like I'm well, like, there's a welcome here like, all the other beings in nature are fully themselves a tree is a tree or a river is a river, the rain is the rain, the sun is the sun. And in you know humans are we're a bit confused. Sometimes it's like, oh, gosh, I got to do this with this person, I got to do that with this person, I got to play that role responsible for that. And it gets to be a lot. And so there's an invitation in nature, sometimes both to be fully ourselves, it might even be unspoken, and then also to witness these other beings that are like really, truly sane, you know, because they are just fully themselves and beautiful.

Marina: It's hard to be yourself, isn't it? Is everything in this time and the way that most of us have been brought up? We were exactly as you say, we kind of split off and we were different for different people and for different roles that we might have. And I'm then curious about what is wholeness? For a human? What does that mean them?

Rebecca: Yeah, well, it's I mean, wholeness is a lot about our connection to nature. I mean, you know, I work with animus Valley. And Bill Plotkin has the model of wholeness, and the north, south, east and west, all the directions. And in many ways, some of the chapters I've written in wild yoga are also connected to that wholeness, just in my own way of seeing it. Like, in my book, I have the nurturing gender. In Bill's book, he talks about the nurturing generative, book, and adult. And in my book I talk about received the love of trees. And in many ways, I experienced that sense of this nurturing part of ourselves. I've experienced that in a relationship with trees. But we need to find love, you know, love is like the healing ground. And sometimes there's just not enough in ourselves, for ourselves or for the world. And sometimes there's just not enough in our relationships. We're certainly lucky if there are but human relationships can be very complex. And sometimes parents who are raising us or partners who are with us, or even friends are caught in their own wounding patterns. And the natural world is just so healthy. And one reason I went to trees as far as are just so healthy, like there's such a community, like a true community and giving to each other. And being in their presence, being in with the tree, spending years with the trees has helped me cultivate a sense of self love, and what love and community might look like. And I often channel that even when I'm not actually out with trees anymore. But wholeness is developing capacities that might not presently exist in us, like I apprentice to the trees for that quality, have the capacity to love greater myself and others. And we might apprentice to other beings in nature, or aspects of ourselves. getting in contact with the young child of us can help bring us into our wild indigenous self, what Bill calls our wild indigenous self, or I might call the young child of ourselves, that often remembers these natural things like curiosity, and innocence and trust that we have that we grow to get like kind of defended against as an adult, because we've had experiences and like, oh, I don't know if I can really trust that and oh, gosh, I gotta do these things that I'm expected to do, there isn't really room for plain curiosity. If we can contact back that child, I always say, maybe in our school systems here in the United States, around first and second grade that people have to sit in on the desk all day and aren't supposed to move around, say go back to first or second grade to the one who has to sit in a desk and tell them that go pick them up and tell them that they don't have to sit in the desk and ask about an extra seven year old to take you on a wander or a walk and go where do you want to go? Let them know I forgotten how to play. I forgotten like what I really enjoy and help me remember what that is like, where would you go today? What would you do? So you know, we cultivate these capacities in us like we often feel something's missing in us as an adult, even though we've developed a lot of things often to have careers or success. We've also put a lot of side to fit in. And we're actually calling that back to us for wholeness. We're cultivating it and developing it and also a capacity to be in contact with the spiritual you know, the totality of everything and in contact with the soul, our unique purpose in the world. The mythopoetic say that we're here to live or the ecological niche that we're here to occupy.

Marina: Gosh, that's a lot to digest, But let's go there in the sense that where you sit what you said at the beginning was that you often kind of channel that. And I guess what I heard when you said that was, you know, in terms of apprenticing to the trees that you, did you mean, I'm going to ask the question rather than make an assumption, did you mean that you visualize it internally, like you go to that place within yourself?

Rebecca: Well, I would say I do that now. And it certainly somebody could can do that visualizing and in their deep imagination. But I being a very kinesthetic physical person and living near nature, I cultivated in the beginning, just by spending time with trees, lying underneath them, looking up at their branches, having my back, you know, where my kind of where my heart is connected to their trunk, and actually just feeling them viscerally and seeing them viscerally. And even talking out loud to them, no, letting myself be vulnerable, I would go to them and ask for help, especially sometimes in moments where I was feeling I wasn't loving myself or the world, like, I need help right now. I'm not loving myself for the world. Can you help me, you know, I'm not sure how to change the channel, I'm not sure how to alter this, I'm stuck. And then just being with the trees and see what happens next.

Marina: I mean, I've certainly found that for me, going to the trees and being able to express myself so much more easily with a tree than often with a human. So I definitely think that and there's a sense for me, in feeling very accepted and very non judged in those spaces. And I guess I hadn't really put a model on that necessarily, you know, but it's certainly working is certainly making me feel that I'm loved in a way that I wouldn't access or be able to feel in a human relationship in that moment, when in you know, when I'm needing that, you know, so it does make a lot of sense to me. And I guess, I'm curious as well, before we go into the kind of the, you know, the spiritual and the soul work is the, what you were saying about the visualization and the deep imagery, because actually, I'm fascinated that I can close my eyes, and call up an image within myself and have a relationship with that. And that, and again, I think this is something that we're not taught to explore or understand that pretty much never, unless you take yourself on that journey, you know, so would you speak a little bit about deep imagery and dreaming, and that as a way to wholeness, perhaps, because I know, that's part of what you offer people as well. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Rebecca: Yeah, deep imagination is often a way to connect with nature, when we're not able to be in nature, right? Like when we're inside, maybe it's winter, or maybe we live in a city or maybe we're just in an office building. Our consciousness can be anywhere we, you know, we bring our attention. And the deep imagination often surprises us just like nature, you know, nature, we don't quite know if I'm with the tree, I don't quite know how it's going to respond, or I don't quite know the weather that's going to blow in. It's a bit unpredictable. In the deep imaginations a little bit like that, too. It's like this dark place inside myself that I turned my attention and I wait to see what arises. I might ask particular questions like, Gosh, I really need to be with the trees right now and connect with some love. Is there a tree that could you know, from my past or from my dream time that I have a relationship with that can come up and help me I might ask that question or I might ask another question. Gosh, I'm not sure I'm not really sure what I'm listening for right now. I'm not sure what I need let me just see what wants to come up but wants to arise what wants my attention. But the deep imagination is actual images. It's a little bit like dreaming while you're awake. When we have nighttime dreams sometimes we can wake up and be like wow, I don't know where that came from. It just like came but it's I'm personally fascinated by my dreams. There were times when I was scared by them. I know that's a common reaction. Scared or uncomfortable or but at this point, I've worked with my dreams for 20 years and occasionally I can be scared by the some image or dream but mostly I'm fascinated by what happens even if I have a nightmare. I'm like, Wow, I wonder why that happened. But the deep imagination is a little bit like that where we consciously choose To turn off our minds, figuring it out planning making it happen. And we just connect to the wild images inside us, maybe with particular questions and needs, but maybe just in an open ended, listening.

Marina: And it kind of feels very important in this time, because what we're in a period, in a culture in a society in a global world where the kind of images we get of our futures or what it is to be human, or that relationship to the natural world is quite severely limited is quite severely, mostly incredibly negative. It's not, it doesn't feel that we're invited to work with this imagine or self work with this part of us that can feel that we can participate and create and CO create. And I really feel increasingly that there is something very important in this and I don't think there are enough people out there like yourself that are offering it a greater a deeper understanding of this part of us because in a way I want to segue a little bit to the world that we're living in and how we can how this relationship with the natural world, this kind of much more visceral, respectful relationship can change things, you know, and inform our decisions, I guess, and what and what we want to do in our lives. I know that's kind of not really even a question there. But there's something around you know, as we do the inner work, we can actually change ourselves and then therefore see with different eyes, and it seems really important they go together somehow, right? What do you think about that?

Rebecca: Yeah, I would absolutely agree, the way we see the world is crucial in the way we participate in the world. And so if we allow ourselves to have an experience with nature, or with our deep imagination, or with our dreams that allow us and open us to seeing ourselves in the world differently, it completely alters the way we know ourselves and the way we show up what we choose in the world. So it's very crucial, you know, we, I think, rather than thinking our way out of problems, I mean, there's, I think someone said, we can only the mind that created the problem can't solve the problem or something like that. Yeah, I love that one. But there's a way we can get stuck in our minds and our figuring out things. I always tell people who go out on solos on the land, like, well, one thing you don't want to do is sit on a rock and try and figure everything out. That wouldn't be a good use of the time out there, the three days that you're out there on solo, but it can be our tendency, because we rely on the mind, like this tool that like, you know, has the best solutions or the best answers. But if we actually drop into our body, you know, our relationship with our body, and it's knowing our relationship with our heart, and it's knowing our relationship with the wild world and it's knowing our relationship with the dream time and the deep imaginal and it's knowing there's a lot more possibility you know, there's a lot more creativity that can come can alter our way of knowing ourselves in the world and alter, alter the possibilities of the way that we live and engage with the world.

Marina: Yeah, it feels critical at the moment, because I've been hearing a lot around where I live around. What would you like to see? What would you know, if you could like what would be important to you, what would matter to you? And someone asked me that recently, and it's like, Well, okay, I mean, I'd really love that the rivers were really clean. And then he goes like, well, what next? You know, and I think there's something about even having the possibility of that and knowing that that yeah, that together we can do that is something that's different, you know, tell me if I'm saying it wrong, is it like all I know is like white river rafting guide is that right White River or is that something

Rebecca: Whitewater? They call it whitewater raft guide. Yeah, that just means I like to be on rivers and there's a lot of rivers with Whitewater, which means they have rapids.

Marina: So that's okay. And in your book in wild yoga, I'm pretty sure you say about, well, you've been to some crazy amazing places. You talk about the Copper River and the Tasmanian River and when I was reading, it's like if any, I think you said, you know, you can drink the clear water of these places, you can actually put your cup in and drink it and you can put your hand in and take the fish out pretty much. I don't know if he said the hand, but you said you can drink, you know, take the salmon.

Rebecca: Those are two of the wildest places. I think you're mentioning the Franklin River in Tasmania and the Copper River in Alaska, the Copper River and Alaska is the one where you can just put your net in without any bait or anything and there's just you just come out with a bunch of fish. And you know, all the rivers were once like that, it is very interesting practice to think about, okay, 300 years ago, what was the landscape like? Or depending where you are, it might be 600 years ago, you know, more 1000 years ago, what was the land like here before for civilization? You know, how rich was it and places like the Franklin River in Tasmania and the Copper River in Alaska give you a sense of that. In the Copper River. It's the incredible amount of fish in the river that are still there. There's a few places like that. Almost all rivers are way low in fish, some needs some lakes need to be restocked with fish, they don't grow naturally. So it's wonderful to connect with a river that's actually like rivers work all the time. At one time, and the Franklin river Yeah, it was almost dammed. But fortunately, it wasn't. Unfortunately, people were able to stop that. And you can, you know, just put your cup in and drink straw you could put your lips in and drink straight you don't need any filtration system, there's nothing in the watershed to cause any poisoning and there's no people humans farms anything. And again, you have that feeling of and the water is clear. And you can really notice like at the end of the trip after you've been on the river, 10 days and you turn I forget the name of this other river but you turn on this other river, it's in my book. In that's a dammed river. And it's all of a sudden it's colder, and it's completely murky. So it's you know, it being on water that is fresh it in that you can drink feels so different from being on the rivers where we mostly have now and I got on all kinds of rivers so I got on plenty of rivers that have waste I got on the I was a primary guide on the Animas River, which has mine waste coming into it and still pretty but you know, the mine waste is there and that had it's been blacked from fire retardant that's been put on land. And that's been cleared, you know, so I've definitely been on rivers that weren't cleaned too. But it gives you all the more gratitude for the fact of the reality of the few clean rivers that there are like, why wouldn't we do everything we can to protect those rivers and also to try our best to clean up the other rivers too, and hope that one day, the rivers can run clear again, all of them are what most of them?

Marina: Yeah, I mean, I feel very moved. Just even imagining that being able to be on a river and put your hand in. I mean, I don't know, but it really does move me I think that's so rare. Now, you know, to have that and yeah, and I guess that is part of the reason why we're here isn't it is to kind of wonder how we can care for rivers and care for things and be cared for, and there is an element in your book as well. And then the work that I've participated with you around being an activist, you know, actually kind of going with the love that you have, you know, with the kind of feeling that you have that when you actually start to feel it gives you the energy to kind of go Yeah, I want to protect this thing. And it's really strong and I felt with your book as well. You know, I loved the kind of balance with kind of the wisdom and the teachings of being in nature and then exercises and then back into the body and being able to listen and be in the body and I get a sense you know, that when I allow myself to get into the body, it's like an antenna it and that is when I can, you know start to feel and so there's so much here you know, there's something about the grief of what we're doing. There's something about the absolute pleasure, playfulness, joy, of being able to participate and then just to kind of circle back to you being a soul guide and maybe really helpful for the listener to understand what a soul guide is and in a way the journey that goes in from the body into the soul world you know and then back out again. And then probably go round and round and round again. Could you speak a little bit about that? And maybe as listeners, you know, what is it to have a soul and to, you know, find something that has meaning for you. Maybe you could share something around that?

Rebecca: Yeah, sure that yeah, the soul is like the deepest, truest part of us that's connected to our purpose. And it's often hidden from us. Because it doesn't want to be mined like it doesn't want to be used for some purpose that's not really authentic. So for our own good for our own safekeeping, it use it often stays hidden. Until there's a time when somebody is able to really see or hear it. There's also ways I think, maybe even as children, it might be whispered all around us, but the whispers are so soft, that we just don't hear it. And we're in you know, culture, mainstream culture is loud, gross, it pulls our attention. And so how are we going to hear a quiet whisper when life is so full or chaotic? And that's why often people go on journeys in the wilderness of listening, you know, solo fasts, times when they can just drop in and let go of everything else, and just really focus on what we would say courting the soul. You know, courting has the possibility of failing, we don't know we there's no guarantees, but courting the soul and asking nature and dreams for help. And so can you tell me who I really am? Can you show me what my purpose here on Earth really is? Oftentimes, people can encounter their soul on their deathbeds, because they're just about to die. Often, the soul can come when the ego is weak. And so on your deathbed, if you're about to die, that's a pretty moment when the ego is weak. But it's a sad time to come into contact with soul because you don't get a chance to live it or know it. While you're here. You're on your way out. So oftentimes, in the ceremonies that we do on the land, there an opportunity to drop in, whether it's a day long wander, or multi day solo, to ask for, you know, what you really want to ask, Who am I really can you give me a glimmer of who I am. And often soul is not, it's a little bit like a I don't know, like a diamond or it has many sides to it's just multi dimensional. And so even if we get a glimmer, it's not like check, I know my soul, like, Okay, done. It's more like a relationship. But you're so happy to have gotten that one view. Because at least it gives you a clue how to go forward and what to focus on and what to develop. And then it's oftentimes a relationship that you keep continuing so you can continue to see more of your soul and know more of your soul and understand what you're here for, you know, what really matters. I think there's a quote by David White, it's something like there's 1000 lives, you can call, there's only one life, you can call your own and 1000 lives, you can call by any name you want. And to me, one of the things that symbolizes is our egos are capable of creating almost any kind of life, like we can quit this job, start over there, we can have a new start here, we can do this, we can develop this. But oftentimes, when I've talked with people that aren't doing the soul journey, they do this thing. And then afterwards, they're like, huh, I did it, but I'm not sure that was it. I can often give you the feeling. But with when you're connected with soul, it's a very different thing. It often feels sometimes, like the challenges that our soul gives us like, Gosh, I really don't know if that's something I can do. But sure would be worth it. That sure worth trying for. And as we keep trying to live the images of our soul, we grow and we become, we change and we become more resonant with who that soul is, who our soul is.

Marina: And does that link with why you've presumably changed your name to say, Rebecca, wildbear? Is that something that is connected to that journey that you've done and that it has meaning in that way for you?

Rebecca: Well, it does. But I didn't really know that when I changed my name legally, because I changed my name legally before I consciously knew my sole name. And I changed it when I was 29. And yeah, at that time, I hadn't actually gotten the vision that I didn't get till later. I didn't actually I wouldn't get it for another decade or so. The wild part and probably even a little bit longer the bear part. Bear had been coming to me for a long time in my dreams and visions. But I didn't really see myself as bear it was really a hard one to own because I thought of bear is my guide and not who I am not an aspect of my soul. But there is very fierce and being fierce in our culture, especially for a woman is pretty dangerous and uncomfortable and I'm more like the quiet wallflower in social situations like that would be the comfortable place in bear was asked gave me to take more of a center stage role and even cause trouble, you know, in certain ways. So it took me some time some years really to say yes. And really get the message. Okay, I get it. I'm there, like, you want me not just to walk with you, but as you?

Marina: Yeah. Then I'm curious about why you've written the book because it does feel like a call to action as well, as well as many things. And, you know, I really feel as I've gotten older that fierceness I mean, I guess, in a way, I was always a bit, I don't know, maybe a little bit outspoken, but that's not fierceness, you know, there's something around standing up and sense of protection. So is the writing link to being able to speak and share and advocate?

Rebecca: Yeah, I think it is. It definitely, I mean, you know, yoga, being a psychotherapist and personal growth really, like helped me in the beginning in the more gentle ways that I am in the more deep ways and internal ways and then being a river guide. And then a bit of an activist, you know, those things like, and then a writer, they're calling me and all that direction of bear to like to show up in the world. And it is a bit terrifying. I mean, sharing the personal stories, in particular, like of my life, like being somebody that whose protective strategies are like hide at all costs, or who, when I first spoken to counsel was like, would like really break myself afterwards, like you shouldn't have spoken, you shouldn't have said that, to be in a place of like sharing at this level, with the world with any where anybody could read, it's taken a lot of help from all the aspects of nature over the last two decades, and bear in particular, to be able to show up for that. And that's often the case. I mean, the Muse is always the muse. And I haven't mentioned the muse. But so I also say, The Muse, which is more back and forth guidance, ongoing relationship in the West, but nature, it feels like they're always guiding me to more edges, and my personality is always a little bit behind and trying to catch up with what I'm being asked to do. So there's a lot of humility and like, Okay, I'm gonna step in that direction, okay, I'll move in that direction today, or even permissioning, giving myself a break, because it's quite intense, you know, to like, be a bit nurturing on the journey, and take my time with it, but to keep going to not give up.

Marina: Yeah, they're kind of like, like breadcrumbs, but at the same time, like tracking it, but at the same time, it feels like very much as we said, about wholeness and integrating. So whilst it's almost like they're coming back to you, you know, like, rather than, you know, that kind of that sense in when you speak, it's not that you were never that it's just, as we often talk about, and you also talk about this about shadow work, you know, how we exile parts of ourselves, and it almost feels like that, the fierce one, you know, the one that can stand up and speak? Yeah, it's calling them back, is calling these parts of us that we've didn't really know that we they were there and yeah, bringing them home in a way bringing ourselves home, it feels like from what you said, in that way. So I also already we've done got so long left, but I was really taken as well, you mentioned this idea. And this is a little bit of a shift in conversation. But it does matter, because it does lead us towards a bit of activism, but also kind of understanding a little bit what's going on, as you've talked about personal responsibility vortex. And I know this isn't your time. But I was really taken by that. And I've been really thinking about that. Because I often think that in the world where we're tasked with doing a lot on our own, you know, we're out there, we're trying to in our little ways, you know, doing little Ambiga ways doing things on our own, but this term, and maybe you'll speak a little bit about that, but it really felt like it was saying Hang on, you know, there are much bigger forces, much bigger systems, much bigger things going on that are really need changing, that it isn't about the individual. And there feels like there's some relief in that and some also, invitation to come together. Because together we can do more. Right? And maybe you could just explain what that means. And I guess you wrote it in your book. And there was a reason that you wrote it, right.

Rebecca: Yeah, I think one of the reasons I wrote it is because it's not uncommon for people to get overwhelmed with this idea of like, everything that they're consuming and everything that they're doing and oh gosh, I got to take the shorter showers or like I had to drive this car, I gotta get this, these products. And so we can, and then there can be a lot of shame even in oh my gosh, I'm not doing enough How could I ever call myself somebody who cares about the Earth and make a difference, and we can really get wrapped up in this sense of overwhelmed? I think you named it in the very beginning of the call, well, I'm a part of this culture that's doing what it's doing. And, you know, and so you are, and so am I. And so we the guilt of that, and the shame of that, and the trying to, in the way the culture kind of guides us to buy this product and buy that product to solve the problem that doesn't really solve the problem. It's actually just buying more, more products. And so we can get overwhelmed and then miss, you know, where is the problem? Really? Where does the problem really live? Like? It's, you know, well, ecosystems are being destroyed, the oceans being destroyed, the rivers are being destroyed. Like, actually, you know, it's not about if I buy this brand of toilet paper, or, you know, it's, there's something larger here, it's about, you know, gosh, what if we, instead of employing people in the mind, we employed people to clean up the ocean? You know, what if the whole culture did things differently? What if we had an influencer voice and directing powers visioning to do to actually engage with our world differently? What if we simply had a real conversation with nature? You know, what if we talked about our grief for how things are and ask for help, and what's most worth doing? So yeah, the personality vortex, to me is, it was a really good point in, in bringing in this piece about how the grief I think, and unknowing of facing the environmental crisis can, and the way our culture directs, mainstream culture can direct our sales mine directs us in the wrong way to spending our time or feeling guilt in ways that aren't necessarily helpful. I worked in a protect protecting land from a lithium mine movement, and it was fascinating to see the number of angry people that were like, how can you be saying you're protecting a lithium ion? You're using computer? Or you're driving a car, you know? So obviously, you don't, you know, it's like that Puritan it's like, hello, like none of us are. It's a very, it's I don't think there's any person here that's really pure of using products that come from mining all around. So does that mean I can't speak does that mean, I guess it can't write a book because it can't type on the computer. But if we do that to ourselves, and we shoot ourselves and each other down in that way, we're not really going to be able to talk about the things we need to talk about to make the larger scale changes we need to make,

Marina: there's a lot going on, that we don't know. And in a way, there's a sense to be more humble. A bit, you know, to be more humble, and to kind of, you know, you talked about consciousness, and actually one of your phrases, which I loved is that it's not really, it's our lack of consciousness. That's the problem. You know, yeah, and I guess, you know, you've spoken about being able to stretch our consciousness so that we can, yeah, be more aware, be more connected to listen to receive messages from just a whole large range of living beings and how that can change. How can it could change things? Is there anything else you'd like to just say? I mean, I'm definitely going to obviously be sharing your website and your work and, you know, all the things that you do with animus Valley and I know that you do prayers. Do you call it prayers in the dark? Is that what you call it? Is that a program?

Rebecca: That's a program I do with animus and I also have my own organization called Wild yoga, from the book and we do a lot of similar things, listening to dreams in nature, but we also have yoga asana, gentle kind, very body centered, listening kind involved. So yeah, I do animus programs and my own organization wild yoga programs.

Marina: And is there anything else you'd want to kind of just share about your vision, your dreams, what you think is? Yeah, needs to be here just as we close this talk together?

Rebecca: Well, I love the piece that you brought in about the consciousness we lack or is the problem and that's a little bit why and the humility because that's a place of, can we you know, if we're invited into a place, can we wonder if the dreams might know more than we do? Can we wonder if the natural world might know more than we do? Can we wonder if there's any beings out there unseen in the world that might know more than we do? Because it's very hard for humans like, we there's that saying, Well, we're the most intelligent life on Earth. I really question that, you know, we are intelligent in certain ways, for sure. But there's also ways we don't there's things we don't see, you know, in less we link ourselves to these other relationships, these other ways of seeing that we're talking about the deep imaginal nature dreams body. And so can we have that humility to ask for help and to reach out not only personally but planetary Lee, in these times, to get help, to get visioning to get new possibilities to help ground us and you know, where to focus our life energy?

Marina: Well, it certainly makes me feel, I don't know, I was gonna say safer. But somehow it's more settled to know that there are people like yourself and growing communities that are living with more humility, and exploring and investigating, and just trying to create different stories and live different lives. So Rebecca, thank you very much.

Rebecca: Thank you. Thanks for having me on the show, and this great discussion, I really appreciate it.

Marina: Thank you so much, Rebecca, for speaking to me, I can feel fully the love that you have for this planet. And I also feel that, particularly when you were talking about the rivers and how there are still, thankfully, rivers that are full of fish that you can actually drink out of them. And just the possibility that we can, as humans, have that experience and actually look and protect and fight for rivers and fight for the natural world to be healthy, or at least also to consider how we as humans can be healthy so that we can actually be able to care for and prioritize and value this incredible precious Earth that we have also really valued your honesty and bravery to say, look, actually, the living world is conscious. And the only way we're going to know that is to spend time in Wilder spaces and actually let go of perhaps what we think we know. And our egos that kind of like to maintain things and actually drop into a much more open mindedness, open awareness, open consciousness, so that when we ask questions out into the world, and particularly towards natural beings, that appear to be inanimate, but aren't, then things can start to happen. And you know, out there listeners, the only way this is ever going to make any sense as if you actually go and give it a go and see what happens. And perhaps these things do take practice. And perhaps nothing will happen. But either way, it doesn't change in my mind, the reality that the earth is indeed very precious. So join me next week when I start to pull the threads together of this past season, and just take some time at to invite you to go into nature over this period, the next week.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show. To stay updated with the wild mines podcast and get all the behind the scenes content. You can visit theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at the outdoor teacher UK and LinkedIn. Marina Robb,

The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb.

See you next week. Same time, same place