Transcript

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(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Marina Robb: Hello, and welcome to the Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, Forest School outdoor learning and nature based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.

This interview left me in a reflective and sensitive space. I don't think anyone can leave this kind of content unaffected. My guest today is Sophie Christophy, cofounder of the cabin and the lodge, both self-directed learning communities for home educated young people in 2016 Sophie established the philosophy and concept of consent-based education, which is the theme of today's podcast. We start the conversation about our dominant culture and how we find ourselves within a patriarchal worldview, regardless of our gender, and that we can all behave mostly unconsciously in a patriarchal way, by normalizing power structures and in the school context, by having little choice or control in what we learn and discovering whether or not we understand and can act from our own agency and authentically say yes or no and respect the boundaries and consent of others. As many of us work in groups and lead groups, we inevitably hold positional power, and it's really very skilful to maintain a welcoming, inclusive, consent-based space while staying with the discomfort of our own biases and assumptions. How can we know what another's lived experience is? I think this is super pertinent for all our relationships with young people and the natural world and people who may communicate in very different ways to the neurotypical population. I really hope this leaves you with lots of questions and a desire to learn more and be agents of change.

Welcome Sophie to the world minds Podcast. I'm really, really grateful that you're here today. Thank you for coming and joining me.

Sophie Christophy: Oh, it's my pleasure, Marina, this is going to be so fun, I know it

Marina: So, as you know, I always like to begin with gratitude, and I sort of tune in a little bit before I start speaking. And for me, it felt relevant to the conversation that I'm sure we're going to have about for me, the importance and my gratefulness for honest communication. And I think what I really value and I'm grateful for is when I can speak what's in my heart or my thoughts, knowing that the person I'm doing this with is going to kind of listen to me and whole you know, still be able to, even if we have really radically different views and ideas, still, we can still be in relationship and care for each other on the out on the other side of that. So I just wanted to bring gratefulness to that, because it really matters in my life, and it matters as I'm getting older, that I can. Uh, you know, lean into edgy things and say things and be honest. Um, yeah, and then know that I can still feel regard, love, care for from the other so that's my gratitude. Sophie,

Sophie: Yeah, nice

Marina: Yeah, how about you?

Sophie: I was gonna say about feeling grateful for my studio space, because I've just had an open studio weekend, and it's helped me get back into my creative practice. And so I'm really grateful for having had that time, but following from what you said, I also want to express gratitude for contrast, and know that so much learning comes through experiencing contrast, and when things are always the same, then you can easily have blind spots and Miss really interesting and thought provoking and growthy kind of things. So I feel like that kind of compliments what you said that where there's difference, you know, if you can navigate it in a in a way that feels okay, then it can be such a rich face. So yeah, I'm grateful for contrasts.

Marina: Thank you. So today, one of the things I want to talk to you about is generally the idea of consent, and it's something that actually I've learned from you and people that you work with as well that are close to you a little bit about, and it feels like it's not a subject that gets talked about a lot. So I'm going to just ask you with ask, and start with a general question of, what is consent in the world that you're within, and what is, because I've seen in your writing, you've talked about consent based paradigm. So what does this mean?

Sophie: I mean, it's a huge question, right? It's a massive question. So I'm just going to pick some threads out of it that hopefully will be interesting. I came to this work and to the concept of consent, basically in response to distress around our relational culture that came out of my experience of becoming a mother, and when I sort of was looking around like, what does our culture tell us about the relationship we're going to be in with our baby or child or, you know, it just I started thinking about that really a lot, because I had this baby to be with, and I knew kind of How I felt I wanted to be with her, but that was a contrast to the culture that I saw around me, the way that I wanted to relate to her, what felt right to me. I've always had a really keen interest in social justice, and that's like historical as well. So kind of like, how have humans organize themselves in terms of identity and relationship, like really going back into history, and how does that sort of influence the current situations that we have? So I basically started to feel this growing awareness around like, what is our relational culture like as a society now? What is it rooted in? What are the beliefs behind it? What are the behaviours that create it, you know? And how does it kind of like pass down, like intergenerationally? Because that was what I was doing in relationship with my baby. Was passing on a relational culture, right in the way that I was being with her. And that brought me really into feminism, because a lot of my experience as a mother brought to my attention like issues to do with the experience of being a woman, basically in the world. And I, you know, I got very interested in certain aspects of feminist theory, but particularly around like patriarchy as a phenomenon. Because patriarchy is about relationship. It's about how do people relate to one another? And patriarchy is like one kind of relational technology that organizes people in a certain way. So historically, that's put men into a position of authority and everyone else underneath that man into a position of, kind of aiding, supporting and following his word, and that's also been reflected in a lot of our institutions, whether that's religious institutions or, like, basically anything, you know, that's organized around us has been built through a lens of patriarchy from like, you know, 1000s of years, actually. So yeah. So when I realized that, and then kind of, obviously, there's a feminist critique of that model, and I was really trying to work out, well, what's like? What is the tincture that like dissolves that, or what is it that shifts that, you know, in terms of how we relate to one another? And after, like a lot of thinking and research, I realized it was consensuality, because consent means that both people have to be regarded, both people in any given situation and or nature, which is like another whole topic about how this has come. Comes into the relationship to the natural world, but yeah, if you have a relationship that's rooted in consent, then both people should have access to information to make an informed choice. Both people should be able to say yes or no to what has happened to them or about them. Both people should be able to do that freely, free from coercion, right? So there are these certain qualities to consent that make patriarchy impossible, because patriarchy requires that you obey. It doesn't entitle you to information. It actually, yeah, really, it doesn't regard people as equal because whoever is in has the most power is deceived almost God, like they're not accountable to the rest. They don't have to consider the rest as equal to them. They kind of have to uphold this identity of superiority to justify the level of kind of control that they have. So yes, so basically, that's how I came to this idea that it was like, well, if all relational culture could shift to being more consensual, then you would see the end of patriarchy like that would just stop. And if intergenerationally, we could be in that kind of relationship with our new children that are coming into the world, then they would learn a new relational technology rooted in consent, and with that comes better communication skills, better ability to be respectful of each other and not perceive yourself as better than someone else, better awareness, like inherent awareness of your own boundaries what is okay or not for you, and A sense of internalized confidence to be able to express that and not be scared of doing so, because the legacy of patriarchy is that we have a lot of almost like nervous system fear around really being vulnerable or saying what is or isn't okay for us. We can, you know, feel that it's unsafe to say no, for example, when we really do need to and patriarchy leads to a lot of, like, manipulative and controlling relational dynamics because people are, like, having to survive within a very like, problematic way, you know, the system. So consent really creates the perfect conditions for people to learn much, much healthier, more transparent, more open ways of relating.

Marina: Well, I could listen to you for a long time because there's, well, there's so much richness and depth in what you've already spoken to. And I just think, for my benefit, as well as people that are going to listen to this, I just going to ask you to just repeat again. In a sense what the simplicity of what patriarchy is, because these terms, I can almost feel, well, there's this feeling of oppression, for sure when you even say that word. So patriarchy, can I just feedback? Is it you're saying? Is this authority or over Would you just say a little bit? Just say, not more about it, but just say. What you just said again? Because I think these things, I almost need to hear what? Well, what is patriarchy? Again?

Sophie: So patriarchy is a way of organizing people. I mean, it's so hard Marina, it means the father, right? The patriarch is like the father. So historically, it's had a very male there's been a very strong male aspect to it, although currently, in our current social context, also people of any gender can hold the position that previously has been male dominated. So actually, any of us can behave in a sort of patriarchal way, potentially, but historically speaking, it's, I mean, there's so much cultural story around this. So, you know, the patriarch is seen as chosen by God, or God like, right? That's our cultural story that kind of explains their level of authority and control they're positioned. You know, in our systems, you can see it. So, like in a school system, a traditional school environment, the head teacher would be the patriarch. They're kind of at the top of the pyramid, right? What they say ultimately goes and everyone else just kind of has to, like, get into line.

Marina: Great. No, that's great. And I'm saying it because I know, as I said, there's so much richness in what you're saying. Almost want to slow the conversation down, from my perspective, not yours, but from mine, just to kind of listen and hear it again, because that's gonna, I think, help me, and it's gonna help Well, the conversation, I hope. And then the other word you used again, consent. And you, by the way, have been very clear, but I'm just asking for repetition of so what are to feel that I have consent. What would that look like again? Just to say those, because you said again a few, you named three or four things, I just want to kind of come back to those two very important words, and I am assuming very important dynamics. Could you just say that again?

Sophie: Yeah, the key ingredients of consent. So you need to be able to make an informed choice, and it needs to be freely given. They're the two key aspects, I suppose, you know. And then within that, it's like, well, what does an informed choice mean? You know, you need to be able to access information. You need to be able to ask clarifying question. You need maybe time to think about it, so that then you become informed about what you want to do, and then in terms of 3d given that is speaking to how safe it feels to you to answer however you want to answer is it, can you say yes and feel that isn't going to get you into some sort of trouble? Can you say no? And that feels safe, because as soon as it doesn't feel safe, you're gonna start playing a game with your yes or no, right? Like it becomes strategic. And the point is that we're trying to not have the strategic fit, because that is part of the other way of doing things, where you're kind of trying to, like, move the pieces so that you're safe and you get the thing, the outcome kind of is what you hope it to be, and so then you manipulate your own response in order to essentially manipulate the outcome, right? Like that's kind of how the old way works, whereas with consent, that isn't you can't have that, because as soon as you start doing that, you also undermine the consent of everyone around you. This is so interesting, because they can't make an informed choice if you aren't being transparent and upfront about where you are actually at. You know, like, if your yes or no is not quite true, will they then take that as their information to help them make informed choices. But their information then becomes a bit rubbish, right? Like it's not a proper information.

Marina: I do feel that all of this, rightly so, is incredibly complex. And I'm really into the idea of complexity at the moment, rather than binary thinking, you know, one or the other, because actually it is so complex what you've begun to talk about because what you're talking about, for me, feels true in every situation I can imagine. Now, you know what? What are the situations where I feel that I've got to obey certain rules, obey we even know that I'm completely unconscious of the things that are going on that are effective affecting me, that are out of my awareness. So there's that kind of thing going on in my thinking at the moment. And then there's, what does it take to say yes and to say no, and to know my yes and to know my No, and to know that I might not know, and like you said, to have time. So these are not simple things that we just get. Are they? They can't be they can't because I'm in my mid 50s, and I definitely struggle with both the thinking of what you're saying. You know, the kind of like, wow, where are people? Where do I enter into patriarchal relationships without even knowing, you know whether, and we say that, obviously, in our society, you know, they're often seen as men, and I am assuming a lot of white men, although that that's not going to be true in many societies, because many societies aren't white. So there's going to be, you know what I mean, all that going on. So how do we then, at least begin to make ourselves more able to enter this and is that what you mean by paradigm, then enter into a kind of different culture, different way of thinking? How do we, yeah, how what is consent based paradigm, and how do we even begin to be within that?

Sophie: Yeah, I mean, I guess I think, for me, it's about working out what is the dominant paradigm that's the one that's having the most impact on your experience, because it's the most shared in society, the most where there's, like a kind of tacit agreement that they're the rules, even if it's not. You know, usually we're born into culture and we don't question it, because we perceive it as natural and normal. And I think when I had a baby, it caused me to sort of step out of that and then start to perceive culture separately to what is natural and normal, and then to ask questions, well, are there alternatives? Or is it just like this thing and everywhere you're born believes their culture is the best and the right one, right? It's kind of like it's the other that might be wrong. It's that those people over there that have something weird going on. Ours is great, I think probably that's universal. Most people on the planet probably have kind of come into that where folks are holding, especially the people in power with influence and control, will affirm the cultural norms that benefit them, right? So the paradigm shift, I mean, we're talking about the unseen aspects of life, right, which is why it's kind of difficult. Relational dynamics are largely invisible. They're sometimes codified in law or in policies and, you know, ways of doing things, you know, but most of the person to person stuff, and the relationship we have with ourself is like, really quite invisible. So the paradigm shift, as I see it, is going from, yeah, it's, you have to sort of find a way to have a sense of something visible from that unseeness. If that makes sense, I get for myself, if I think about it, I would probably see a structure, like in my imagination or in my energy. I'd be like, oh, it's like some sort of geometric structure. There's way pathways that energy moves down, and you could move those pieces around, and then the energy would move differently. You can see what it means. So I kind of see it like that, like relational energy, right? What the which direction is it going in? You know, how where is the power like? Or maybe power moving, you know, where does the power where can it flow easily? Where does it get diverted like? So, how would you reorganize it so that it flowed in this way, if you see what I mean. So like I do shifting from one structure to another, and it's really difficult to do it because it's so entrenched. I mean, like, I've come to really feel about relationship is just the most important thing in terms of what happens in life, you know, and like, how we relate to things informs what we build. You know, everything. So the difficulty that we have is that all of our established institutions have been created through this patriarchal lens, which means that they are easily perpetuated. You know, all young people, well, not all, but the majority of young people enter a school system that is hierarchical in this way, where there is clear power dynamics, where I think they're clear, but, you know, normally we just take it for granted and see it as just like what children need, but and they're socialized in that space, and often that is then affirmed and supported by home environment as well, in its own way. So you're kind of, it's the hidden curriculum, right? You're learning something. It's off the main curriculum, but it's very important in terms of power dynamics and your place in that by going through school. So I mean, really, to pivot things, we have to change like how children grow, like the environment, the relational environment that they grow in, and that starts from when they're born, you know, that learning. But there's also obviously the, you know, so there's structural things, but there's personal things, I guess. And I've been thinking about coppicing recently because my partner's about to embark on some coppicing and I think that's kind of the, I mean, I don't know much about it, but it's kind of an interesting thing to help explain, like, personally, how you can live a more consensual life, because when you copy it as I understand it, you're kind of clearing way so the sun can get to the ground to help different flowers and things like come back into that place and to stop it getting totally crowded out, I guess, a bit like when you clear bracken and stuff like, it's, um, really supportive, like, human intervention for biodiversity and things. When you're you yourself, are trying to move from a patriarchal paradigm to a consent-based paradigm. You have to do a lot of clearing. Like that. You have to do a lot of clearing. So, you know, it's kind of like, well, if you think that when you're in a consensual experience, it feels very good, it feels aligned. You feel very integral, because your insight, your truth, is your life. So that's kind of the most sort of naturally thriving way to be, not to say it doesn't come with pain and grief and all the other emotions that are difficult, but at your core, your outside is the same as your inside, and that's how you're known by those around you, right? So, but what can happen is we get rambled up. We get kind of encroached. Our system becomes, like, full of these things that make that difficult and cause us to kind of have different like survival responses or stress responses, and we behave out of that way. So if you want to get back to it, you sort of have to clear these things. You have to clear the bracket away. Like, okay, so you know what, you have to be able to notice what you're holding that is obstructing you, and then shift it, basically, and that's an ongoing practice, because we live in a dominant culture that doesn't support our way of being. So every time you've done some clearing, it will still try and like, regrow in again, because that's what we're getting from around us and the demands of the wider culture will keep on sending little Bramble. I mean, I love Bramble and nature, but like, you know, it will send a little thing in and then that starts entangling, and it's like, oh, hang on. Now I have to clear, you know, this away over and over again. So it really is a discipline and practice. And I think, when we're talking about something that you can't even see for then people to understand that you need an active practice to manage this experience. You can see why it's not happening that much, because it's seemingly, you know, I think people come to it from a different direction. They come to it often through a self-help route, or, like, healing, you know, it's kind of like, oh, there's something not right in my life. Or, you know, you're trying to address like, issues in your family, and so people try and, like, do the work around that, but really that works also trying to get the person to the same place that I'm talking about. You know that, but it's not coming down the chain. I said, realizing, what is the relational dynamic and then what? How does consent play a role in it? But I was working, I've done someone's one work with therapists in the past that where I've been working with them, but not for therapy for myself, but like for their one to one, if that makes sense. And I remember one session, the person I was working with was, like, I realized that, like, this consent thing is, like, really, at the root of, like, all my clients suffering. And it was, like, a huge kind of realization that, oh, that's the problem. Like, wow. Okay, you know, so,

Marina: yeah, I guess, I mean, you talked about all the words that are coming to me are true nature, you know? What is our true nature? Who are we? You know, what really matters to me? And I guess I think this is the journey of life. So you know, when you talk about therapy, and at the core is that can you know, when do I say, Yes, you know, when am I in it? But it's connected to knowing who we are, and that, again, takes time, you know. So I'm again, I'm holding the question around skills, you know, how do we become more consensual in our lives, whilst I guess understanding that I'm never going to really have full knowing of both myself, because I'm also a mystery to myself, you know, and the other is also absolutely going to be a mystery. So where I'm going to in this, and they're, again, just wonderful to just listen to you. I'm going to maybe a practice being about assumption, because we did. We've talked about this a little bit before, but if I, what I mean by that is, I know, I'm making unconscious assumptions about in inverted commas, the other, you know, the other person, the other, not more than human being, you know, because I can only see the world through my lens. So inevitably, I have to make assumptions. And so it comes back to reality, and my reality is different to your reality. So how do I then in a relationship? How do we meet each other, then what are some of the ingredients where I can really be alongside you and alongside the children I might work with, or alongside somebody that's really different I perceive as different to me. How can I how can they have consent? I know you mentioned this earlier, but it's so valuable. How can they have consent? And I have consent, you know? What does that look like, especially as we're all in this weird imagining of what the other might be thinking as well. You know, you get where I'm going with that. So maybe speak to me a little bit about how consent works when here we are with different awarenesses, different consciousnesses, meeting each other. Yes, yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

Sophie: The assumption thing's so interesting, right? And I would say, like, if you have to make an assumption, do it temporarily until you don't have to anymore. So it shouldn't be a position, basically, like, you might need to make an assumption because you can't get the information at the time that you're in. But like, that should be temporary, because theoretically, you could then ask a question, right? Like, rather than riding on an assumption. And I think that's also really important, if you're in a position of power and you're decision making, that you don't make a decision out of an assumption unless you really have no choice. You know, so because an assumption is so likely to be wrong, or at least highly biased by our own lens, like you said, right? We're doing the maths. From our own experience, is so high the chance that. Get that maths wrong. So it's not a very good way to, kind of like, know someone or make a decision. So you know if you're going to take another route, then you know if you're kind of like devaluing assumption as like a method of relating, so to speak. Then the other options are curiosity, connecting, asking a question, kind of like, not, you know, if you decide I really don't want to make assumptions, unless it's like an emergency, or I have no option, you know, then what am I going to do to find out what the truth is here? Like, the best option we have is just to ask the other person, like, just ask them, oh, what do you think about that? Or, like, you know, and then you get better Intel. Basically, yeah, to work with. And, you know, whatever you come up with out of that, whether it's your relationship or the decision, that's if you're making a decision, like, what that solution is. Mean.

Marina: I do, and I guess, love that you know, the flip is, you start to be curious, you start to wonder. You start to ask questions. And again, in that dynamic where we're power over, or in that sort of sense. I mean, I know we're not on video here, but I'm kind of like crouching, because I do feel like, you know, when someone's over you, you're smaller. I feel smaller. And my kind of head is down, you know? And so, yeah, I've gone into my body now feeling a bit little, and how I've even forgotten the question of what we were saying, actually, to be quite honest. But this because I suddenly feel, what, how do you then? Well, you know, that's right, the other person being curious has to be willing to be curious. Otherwise, yeah, it's so hard for to ask a question. You have to be willing to stay with that relationship, don't you, rather than say, make a decision, dominate, make a whole bunch of assumptions, and that has nothing to do with how, with the other

Sophie: Yeah, you have to be, like, willing to hear information that's inconvenient to you as well, right? Like, if you, like, kind of make assumptions. You can discreetly tailor those assumptions to help you meet your needs, or to kind of get you where you want to go, whereas asking a question, like genuinely asking a question openly, means you then need to receive the information that comes back to you and integrate that, and that might be help, like it might help you and what you're trying to do, or it might not, you know, and so you have to, I mean this, I guess this is helpful to say about the patriarchal paradigm is that it's a stress response. So patriarchy manifested in response to a threat. Very interesting. It's kind of like culturally embedded stress response as normal relating patriarchy only happened because there was like an emergency, and in the emergency someone took control, and that became embedded, because the sense of emergency didn't diminish sufficiently, and then the folk that were in charge in the emergency made a lot of decisions that shaped Our society, without including a lot of people who had different perspectives and needs to them, ie women and children to be honest, because it was men had become separated to deal with something that was threatening. Okay, so, if we're moving out of that paradigm, we're also needing to acknowledge like, Oh, Why might a decision be made without curiosity? Because when we're stressed, we're more likely to want to control outcomes. We're more likely to write because we feel like we have to. It's kind of like the alternative is not really imaginable to us, so we need to, kind of like, make sure everything is where it needs to be. And you know, but that's that. That doesn't have to be our normal way of organizing, relating and making decisions. Like, we can reserve that for like, when the house is on fire, you know, that's when you want someone to like, pull the reins, like, who's the best person to like? Get everyone out of here, right? Don't ask questions. Get everyone out but what? What as a sort of society we've, like, not got the skills there's coming out of the state of emergency at all. Other times when there isn't, you see what I mean.

Marina: I do. I mean, I don't know. Obviously you've spoken to like, perhaps the cause of why we're one of the reasons we're in you're, I mean, I assume you're referring to a historical, perhaps war like event. I don't know, where someone I don't know. I mean, it would be really interesting to have some link to some of that resource, if people want to look into that, you know, to kind of think about, you know, patriarchy as a distressed response. That's the first thing. Yeah. Gosh. There's so much in this, I can feel my own kind of inner, kind of thinking and creativity going to lots of different places with this. So there's Okay, so there's acknowledging that we as humans, when we have a stress response we often need to control but our everyday living, we're living with each other and bringing a little bit back to schooling. And you know how it is in education, how I think it'd be really useful to give me an image if you can, because I know you co-created and co-founded a consent-based education and continue to work within that. Maybe you could say a little bit about that, and how does this look like within that setting? Because I guess as I feel like I'm being pulled back to the skills again. What are some of the skills? What are the some of the things that we can do on a day to day that help us experience what it is like to have our voice I'm hearing within consent, and also words like, you know, we use a lot of words in education, like autonomy and agency, so perhaps if you could give me a little few images of that, then we can see where we go to from there. That'd be interesting.

Sophie: Yeah, nice. So we're kind of moving into, like the new paradigm, in a way. What is it like there? You know? Yeah, so in a learning environment that is rooted in consent, then you are going to see much more freedom of choice, so everyone in that environment having more options and more ability to move themselves to where resonates with them, or what they're interested in, or to rest or to get food, to get water, to the toilet, to go outside. So you're looking for like a high level of movement and freedom for people to navigate what's going on. You're also looking for ways in which everyone can influence what's happening, rather than it being like an imposed sense of that, it's like, well, you have to recognize the wisdom within all the people that are there and the value in all of that, including their curiosity drives like all of that needs to be valued. So you end up with like a very rich mixture of things happening because it reflects the true identities of the needs of the people that are present at that time. And you know, with that comes a need for people to like be non-judgmental about what those things are. Because I don't really want to talk too much about the old product I know in the new one. But you know, we, kind of the older folk in the group come in with their own learnt kind of beliefs and fears around what it's important that children do and what isn't important to stay at the door. So you have to be very open to a broad range of expression and ideas and uses of time. You're going to be looking for, like, really easy accountability that happens, like, informally as well as formally. So you know, you're going to see facilitators apologize if they've made a mistake, and be accountable to whoever's there and young people as well. So it's, you know, everyone's got personal responsibility and clear roles, so that there isn't just, like unwieldy power, like waving around the place. It's like, well, this is what this person does, and this is what this person's role is. And we're all here to, like, serve the community. And you know, if we make a mistake, we'll say, sorry, we'll pivot, you know, you'll see shared risk assessing and shared problem solving, so that the people taking the risks have the most influence in determining how those risks are managed within a threshold, you know, and you're going to see beliefs that, yeah, people that are basically in the problem, are going to have quite a lot of information about how what the problem is, more so than someone stepping in to try and fix it, if that makes sense. So very collaborative ways of figuring things out.

Marina: I saw a video, which I will share on the show notes of actually just young people, children organizing their day on your website. So would you speak to a little bit about that? You know, like, so that, because I saw them chairing a meeting, I saw them listening. I saw them holding space in a way that was, you know, more equal. And I guess that's the word as well, equal that I'm really interested in. But you know, could you just give us an image of that, perhaps, as well?

Sophie: Yeah, totally. So like the partner dynamic with consent is self-direction and so, yeah, but we could maybe talk about that a bit later on, I realized that someone can take us out of the meeting, but basically, self-direction speaks to freedom, right? It speaks to like being able to do what you want to do, what you know you want to do. Consent is what happens when that meets someone else. You know, so that your freedom doesn't just, like, steamroll over everyone else's, like, needs and boundaries, right? So that's where then, oh, it's like, I move with self-direction. And when I encounter something, I seek consent, a consensual way forward I see. And if there's a conflict, I work out how to move through the conflict in back into consensuality and self-direction. Okay? So that's kind of like how these things work together. But when you have a lot of freedom, and you don't have a punitive response to that freedom, so we don't have any rewards and punishments. There is no like, there are no punishments in the space. You need a container still for that community to feel held and for that accountability that I mentioned before to thrive. And so what we have is opening and closing meetings every day that hold the time we are together in between. And the opening meetings are chaired by anyone in the community that's done the chair training, which is 410, minute sessions, and we have chairs as young as five, and facilitators also need to do the training as well if they want to chair. So that and the chairing is rotated through the chairing list. So each day that we're together, a different chair, the chair which keeps the power moving right through the community, which is really cool. And in that meeting, every day, we remind ourselves about community agreements, we have a check in to basically see if everyone's doing and to remind folk that they are a person here with a voice. And then we sort out our plans for the day, which are co-created. And then we also ask, is there anything else anyone needs or wants to say? And that's the opportunity for any problems to come up, if there are any or any announcements. So twice a day there's a chance for anyone in the community to say if something's not right or if they want something they don't have. It's a really healthy discipline and keeps you know, like I was saying about the bramble, that's our coppicing twice a day. Twice a day, we check for anything here that needs to move. Are we good to carry on like that's really sound. You know?

Marina: It is really sound. And it can be transferred to life as well as the context that you've just provided within a kind of learning environment. Can't it all those ways of checking in and our needs being met, as my needs and your needs being met. And again, it's that thing going right back to what we were saying earlier, around difference, you know, and having a different place, but we can still be together. It can still be welcome, and we can be heard. And yeah, I assume it takes a bit of time with 15 minutes, it's 15 minutes, yeah. So they get used, I guess they get that. They it becomes a different paradigm,

Sophie: Right? You've established, like, a different cultural foundation for your relationships, yes, and because you've, like, named your shared agreements at the beginning, everyone's clear, like, you know you can't touch me without my consent. Everyone knows you can't touch myself without my consent. Everyone we all agree, you know, and that's what you need when you're shifting paradigms. Because this way, this culture is not normalized. So we have to make explicit, like, these are our relational agreements. This is how we're going to be together as a community, to check that everyone's aware, because that's not what they'll experience in a lot of other places, right? They won't necessarily. So we have to say it. And anyone that wants to shift need to start working on making their relational agreements explicit and not counting on the ones that people have picked up along the way, because it's really likely that there are, like, certain beliefs, or, you know, differences that will really undermine the relationship to chance for being consensual, you know? So.

Marina:  Yeah, I mean, I'm so there's so much more here, because I'm also now wanting to bring in the natural world, because you have used the metaphor of coppicing and strangely. I'm well, not strangely, but my listeners, I think if they do listen regularly, will know that I co support a community woodland, right? And within that, we actually, literally are in the middle of a first, not a first, but a quite significant harvest, where you thin the woods and it's been so interesting for me. And we also coPI so I am quite familiar with coppicing, which effectively you cut down the trees right to the bottom for regeneration, and it's been part of yesterday, I was in the woods talking to a dear colleague of mine, Mark, um, who's very knowledgeable. And he spoke to I was really asking lots of questions. I've been confused about a lot of the Big Whys, you know, and the power I have to determine. Uh, what happens in that woodland, you know, and what's the purpose, and, you know, all those little things. And he was saying that coppicing has been, well, it's very old. It's to, you know, over 2000 maybe longer. And that before, before this time, was the wild woods, and that was the time, you know, when we had the bigger, mega fauna and so on. And so they would knock down the trees, and that would be naturally regenerated within the humans have been in partnered with the natural world in this wonderful thing of coppicing, which creates, as you said, so, you know, more life, more regeneration and we've done it in a way that benefits ourselves and also the wider, more than human world, right? So where am I going with this? Is that purpose and power is very important, because within I've had, you know, certain conflict around, okay, so we're gonna thin the wood. Why am I thinning the wood? And, you know, is it because, is it gonna really support? Who's it supporting? You know? And he was like, well, it's gonna thin the wood. It's gonna let light in, and it's probably gonna warm the land, so that the invertebrates are good. There's gonna be more invertebrates. And but I'm also taking, I'm also killing, you know, I'm also taking, you know, making. The weird thing is that me as a human is making that decision, and I guess I'm curious at all of this, because we often, we rightly when we're talking about this education, we're talking often about humans and agency. You know, our agency. And I've absolutely, I'm on the page of the importance of people feeling they have agency and autonomy, and I'm learning more about consent, but I'm also wondering, and I'd want you to play with me here a little bit on then, what's the agency of the more than human here? And this idea that, because, in a way, we've talked a lot about pyramid, as when you said patriarchy, I thought pyramid, the old order and we often talk in ecology around key so species like, which makes sense, the species that, if you take us take away, has a huge effect on the working, living world. So I've said a lot, as I do as well, but agency feels really important here, like with human agency. But what about the agency of everything else? And I wonder about consent. And I wonder about non-verbal consent. You know, I'm thinking about whether non-verbal disabled humans or less abled, as I think you use which I or not, less able, differently abled you. It was your words. And I obviously work alongside the natural world, and they don't speak in the same way. So how do they get consent? So I know this is another big I'm opening to another thing, and we haven't got loads of time, but I would love to bring that in, because this is a wild minds podcast, and I know you're a deep thinker, and you know, so I just welcome that. What do you think about that agency of the other?

Sophie: Yeah, I mean, definitely like regeneration, environmental regeneration and continuation was part of my early questions. And thinking around like, what was the reach of a consensual dynamic, you know, because, obviously, it's a huge problem that we face is our relationship to, you say, the more than human world, the trees, the plants, everything you know, everything that's here and again, like becoming a mom made me even more keenly aware of the future for all the children, not just mine, and the world they were like going to grow into. So it's really in my heart to like consider this and to believe that it's tied in a positive way to this change, because part of patriarchal ways of being is the same thing that you see in colonization, which requires a belief that you own something that you can do with it, what you will to serve your needs through Your own strength, basically. And so that's what then can lead to very unconscious ways of being with the land, and a disregard and diminish sensitivity to the agency of the land, because you aren't perceiving it as having any or having any potential agency, right? You just see it as belonging to you. And you do what you want with it to meet your needs. So if you, I believe that if you are able to like, exist within this more consensual energy, and you know, you grow up in that way, that isn't an option for you. It's not like available to consider that you just own the land, that you would just use something however you wanted to, because you don't experience your personal power in that way. That would be such an overreach, you know, to not even consider the like boundaries of nature, to not consider the energy of the river, to not consider like the meaningfulness of that space, you know, and I think like cult. Societally, as humans, we've become highly desensitized and separated from some really important abilities that some feel more strongly than others, but essentially, we all have the possibility to have, you know in terms of seeking consent from in a non-verbal scenario, whether that's nature or the person, because that's what you do with a baby, right? A baby can't talk to you, although they can express through behaviour. But this is sort of the same. It's a good practice ground, you know, to develop those kinds of skills. You can do multiple things, right? So energetically, you can seek to connect. That's what I would do now, like I'm at a point in my life of a high level of spiritual sensitivity. And I do quite a lot of spiritual work alongside this what we're talking about now, and I really believe in its potency. And you know that that connection is super meaningful to me. So my first step would be to, like, seek energetic connection to whatever the thing was that I was going to be affecting or the decision affected. And through that connection, seek to intuit as much information as I possibly could that felt like it was coming from that source. So that would be the first way that I would like gather my information that would help reduce my assumption, you see, what's mean. And then beyond that, I would with an awareness of the risk of my own biases. And like lens, I would seek to ask questions from others, you know, like with coppicing, you could assume that, like, Why are these people chopping the trees down? You know, like, we shouldn't be deforesting, and that's like a naive lens on what's actually happening in that situation. But if you don't ask the question, you could leave that place thinking they don't love the woodland. You see what I mean.

Marina: So absolutely, that's happening at this moment, you know, right?

Sophie: It's like, what are you doing? It's kind of like, it's not an informed response, and you only get informed by asking the question, oh, why are you doing this? This is so I would have thought this might hurt the trees, but no, actually, that's what will keep the trees alive forever. So, you know, rather than them dying, but you haven't had if you don't ask the question, you can't get the information to them make a better decision about what is going on. So yeah, I would seek to connect and find out what I would seek sources that I trusted and that I felt had good experience in this that would share values of mine, so that I could get really good information from there. And then I would work out what was felt like a balanced approach. You know, how can both needs get met? You were saying, How can we both consent, right? So then I'm going to weigh up, okay, what are my needs and what is the needs of this space, this land, this place? How can we both get our needs met? What? How far can we go before it hits too much against our survival in either direction, so that we can maybe, perhaps both make some compromise, but then move forward in a way that is sustainable. That's kind of the process, right and, and, you know, but it's a subtle, energetic, and, you know, potentially spiritual, non-verbal process that requires a little bit of time and a certain de stressed, you know, way of being, and really sadly, like when you know, if you when you read reports from colonizers that their lens, when they encountered different Aboriginal indigenous community made these types of relational dynamics entirely invisible to them, and they saw that they were doing nothing, or they misunderstood the burning they misunderstood because they're not their own violent like growth environment robbed them of their abilities to have sensitivity to these ways of relating. Yeah, you know, but it's very difficult. Marina, like, you know, I exist in the world now as really, like a sensitized person, I'm highly sensitive to power dynamics, relationally, super sensitive to them institutionally. And I'm also really aware that, like many people, on looking me and my work, like, also are don't see important aspects of it because of their own perspective and experience. And that's quite painful because, you know, especially when you feel like, wow, this is really like, so amazing, you know, it's so like, it's right in the center of all that is love. You know, it's like, right in the top. Tenderest place, and for that to kind of be unseen is such a shame, it feels like missing the point. Do you know what I mean? And this kind of like just to share one last thing, it loops us back in the way to what was one of the early questions when I started talking about coppicing, when you had said, like, what do we do? We don't always know ourselves. We don't you know and it is returning to that place of tenderness that helps us in this work. It really comes down to like, our sense of like, settling into our own divinity and our own pure heart, that we can move into relationship in this way, you know, and that is a painful reach for most folk like you and I, yeah, like, it's not that available. It's really challenging. And like you said earlier on, there's this we have a difficulty because we through our lived experience in the legacy and ongoing natures of patriarchy, tend to see two options, the powerful or the powerless. In this situation, am I powerful or am I powerless? But what we're trying to do is to know that we are truly powerful in our hearts, like we are all powerful in our hearts. So there is this third space.

Marina: Yeah I feel like I've kind of moved into the place of, in a way, the non-verbal and just Yeah, wanting to acknowledge all that's been spoken. And I'm waving my hands. It's like the sword as well. It's just both these two intertwining things of yes and the yes and the no and then the space. I am a bit non-verbal at the end of this conversation, which is great. You know, there's not often that I get into that, but I really welcome everything that we've spoken about. And yeah, I think that moving into a consent-based paradigm that helps us really be with the more than human world, the more than people that are different from us, that allows that, the facilitates, the skills to do that is exactly the world that I hope we're co constructing together, you know. So thank you, Sophie, thank you very, very much.

Sophie: Oh, thanks, Marina, it's been so nice to hang out with you.

Marina: Thanks, Sophie. I've got so much to learn. And think about it reminds me of how important it is to have safe spaces to explore all of this material, and of course, it to get it wrong and sit with the possible discomfort and shame of either perpetuating exclusion and living with all this bias and assumptions, and at the same time staying with us long enough to find our way back to self-compassion and feeling loved enough so that I can continue that we continue to work on our own blind spots. So see you next week, everybody, when I reflect more about this theme and link it to nature based practice and the co creation of welcoming safe enough spaces.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show. To stay updated with the wild mines podcast and get all the behind the scenes content. You can visit theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at the outdoor teacher UK and LinkedIn. Marina Robb,

The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb.

See you next week. Same time, same place