Try Our Free Online Course

Transcript

The Outdoor Teacher Ltd owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Wild Mind Podcasts, with all rights reserved, including right of publicity.

You are welcome to share an excerpt from the episode transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles, in a non-commercial article or blog post, and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include proper attribution and link back to the podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.

No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Marina Robb's name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services. 

(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Hello, and welcome to The Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature-based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, for a school outdoor learning and nature-based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.  

Welcome, to Episode 44 the essentials of healthy nature-based practice. October has arrived, and the days are growing shorter and colder, yet at this time of year, we can also experience the last rush of some of those green plants to eat before the winter sets in. For example, you can find nettle and cleavers growing again. You can find plantain and round Ivy as well as all of the berries. And if you know what you're doing, it's mushroom season.

So this cycle of growth is coming to a close and death is all around us as well, we can be thankful that this part of the cycle really does enable the ground for the next one to come, and soil and fungi science is particularly spectacular at this moment. During my trainings and programs, we're gathering the last of the hawthorn berries to make Hawthorn leather, and we're looking for rose hips to make cordial and medicine for the winter.

In this episode, I'm grappling with how our choices bump up against the choices of others, and the often-invisible dynamics involved in our ability to make those choices. I'm also reflecting on some of the techniques we may use to create safe enough spaces. Really hope you enjoy this episode and do let me know if there are any areas you'd like me to cover in the future. Welcome to Episode 44 I'm really grateful today for Being Well, being physically able, and to be able to move easily and direct myself in ways that can meet my needs most of the time, and be able to go outside as the season is changing, and take some time To observe the trees, the land and the drawing in of the energy for this winter that's coming, even though we're in autumn.

Got my wooly hat on, because the temperature has definitely changed. And today, I want to just reflect a little bit about nature-based practice and how we create a welcoming and safe enough space, and how we might do that, and I can imagine that that will look differently for different groups and for different ages, because actually, It's so important that we are paying attention to who's there at that moment and having enough consideration about what safe enough might mean for those people. But usually, when you're starting groups, you have to consider basic agreements. Sometimes we call them rules, right? But actually agreements, guidelines of how we're going to be together is really important, and sometimes that's about thinking about safety on the land and boundaries, physical boundaries, because actually we haven't risk assessed beyond a certain point, and that's important, and that the land might be big enough, wild enough to get lost in.

There's sort of those kind of basic safeties, but it's really how we're going to be together as a group, and how we're going to be in relationship to the wider natural. Space as well. So fundamentally, we often talk about looking after ourselves, looking after each other, and looking after the natural the space we're in, the natural world that we're in, and what does that look like? And that seems incredibly simple, but within that, there are so many layers. I mean, how do we look after ourselves, and how do we look after the other? And how does that change over time? Because when we're meeting the first time, we don't know each other, so we don't really know, or we have no idea, what the needs are of other people in the space that we're working with. And also, it's become really popular to understand about needs and start thinking about, what are my needs? What are your needs?

And certainly, when we do trainings, we kind of unpack that what is important to us, what matters to us, beyond the basic stuff of being having enough breaks, having food, having water, having shelter, those kinds of basic physical needs, and that can also obviously look different for different people, and it's really important to kind of keep coming back to that and finding ways of listening and understanding. As I said, What can matter to the people that you working with or supporting in this program? Because I'm talking about a kind of nature-based program that might be something that lasts for a year every week, like a forest school program, or it might be for a period of 10 weeks or six weeks, or it might just be for a day.

And of course, you don't want to spend the first bit of the time just going over that too long, because actually, we need to get into our bodies and experience a different part of what we of who we are. We can't just stay in our head thinking all the time. Being in the body and in the senses is obviously really important when you're outdoors, because there are so many benefits to that as well. But setting kind of community agreements and the permission to decide what meets your needs is really important. And in the world that I work within, we really support this idea of choice, the choice to decide what you might actually spend your time doing in these spaces and how we might create activities that meet the interests of those people in the room is really important. And when I say in the room again, I'm usually imagining a space that has a fire area, not always, but often we do need it if it's cold, so just learning to observe and get to know the people that you're working with, because that's that relationship, and it relationship, just like any relationship that you then can find out what that person enjoys and what they might be interested in learning, and that really does link also with this idea of consent.

I was really impressed by so much of what Sophie spoke to last week around consent and this importance of being able to know when you actually are agreeing to something that yes and when you're not. And I guess I was raising quite a lot about, well how do I, and how does anyone really know fully when they're agreeing to some something. And Sophie was sort of saying, Well, yeah, you need to gather information before you know about whether you can agree. And it's so sensitive to kind of work in a way that allows you to become much more conscious and much more aware of, I think, like your body, in a way, saying, hang on, this doesn't feel right. Or, Oh, I didn't I'm really doing something that I don't want to do, and really kind of noticing that, because it seems to me that we go through life, kind of going through doing all these things that we actually may not really want to do. And this isn't about, oh, go ahead and do everything you want. And, you know, just choose what you want. That's not life. And we're always in situations and thinking, you know, work, education, where. We're you know, we're not fully consenting to do everything, and we that we want to do because it's not possible. And that, I guess that's part of the questioning, or the rumbling of this is at what point, how much can I do to what consequence Do I go along with things that really doesn't feel okay for me?

And what choices do I then have? And certainly in the work that we do, we are really trying to create spaces where, obviously, people are choosing to come to, you know, they're not being forced to come to, and then they're designing for themselves in community, in relationship to other People, how they're going to spend that time and there are limits. There's no way that we can do everything, but we can try. It's particularly obviously when we're thinking of nature-based activities, whether that's creative activities, whether that's using tools, whether that's foraging, whether that's building structures, whether that's cooking, and a whole range of other ways to explore this setting. And that could be lying on the ground and looking at the trees or watching the clouds move.

It can be really getting in a magnifying glass and really exploring the detail. And all the while our senses are being stimulated, and all the while we're discovering and having curiosity. So there's multiple ways to experience the outdoors, and everybody will have different ways of discovering something that meets their needs. And this is also, of course, linked to well-being, and both choices linked to well-being and this kind of understanding of consent, and when am I saying yes, and when am I saying no? And I've become really increasingly aware in in groups, that I might process things quite fast. You know, I want an answer kind of now, because my brain is going at a certain speed, not always, but that is the way my brain will work. And understanding that, of course, others need time to process, and if we're having a conversation or asking a question or doing some training that they understandably might need time to process, and actually something about that around consent, understanding that they can request that and actually not reply straight away and have time to think about it.

And we do it all the time. You know, I play lots of what I love, lots of nature-based games. And I think there's, you know, a lot of benefit to bringing people together and going to that edge. We talk about that edge, that edge is where learning happens, that discomfort is a powerful place, but that discomfort is not okay if it tips into stress and distress. So how you find that out? What that edge is a journey, and it takes time, and you might surprise yourself. You think you're going to get to this edge, and it's not nearly as uncomfortable as you thought. So there's something here about not as the health and safety executive would say of the UK, let's not wrap people up in cotton wool, because there's so much value in exploring risk and the edges and having the emotional resilience to be in situations that may feel uncomfortable, and that's what we talk about when we talk about windows of tolerance, and expanding that windows of tolerance.

So there's a lot in this conversation around my right to say no, my right to say yes, and also that willingness, and I guess, the conditions, the ingredients of a space that allows you to explore those edges and those risks so that you get the benefit of that, and you get to experience something different. And of course, that's physical, that's emotional, and I think listening last week and being in that conversation. So I do wonder about the skills, the opportunities to practice consent based education or consent based spaces and creating these containers, we like to use this word container, the container where we can feel safe enough to express these things and my experience, the facilitator sets that tone in being able to express their own vulnerability and their own autonomy and their own sense of this is okay and this isn't okay as well, so that that container is held in a way that feels safe enough, and that's just the beginning, because, as I say, in the practices that we work within, we are building that container together, and we're building these relational agreements.

How are we going to be together? Do we create spaces where we get to check in with each other and say what's working, say what isn't working. And I've always got this little conversation in my head going, this isn't just a given. It's not just a given that people are going to say what they think that we need to find and co create conditions that are safe enough for people to speak out. I mean, I've remembered so many times over my lifetime being in groups or settings where people will say, Well, you know, so what do you think? And everybody just goes quiet. And everybody's got things they want to say, but they just won't say it, because it's so exposing to say what you really think, particularly if it's not in line with what that leader, that person who has positional power, was saying. So there's a there's so much to this. And I did put a link to a video that happened in Sophie's setting of children sharing their self-directed day.

Really, that's their setting. So do have a look at that if you want to see children doing this and how that works. And I guess, as I said, it becomes a situation where people feel more empowered, more able to voice what they need, and that is really important in terms of consent. And you know, the theme for me of this season is clearly around understanding and experiencing and acknowledging that in different moments we have power, and in other moments we don't have power. And that can be identifying characteristics that we might have around whether we're white, that can give us power in certain situations, whether we are a man or whether we're a woman, or whether, what about our class? What about our physical abilities? What about our education? All these things affect how we are together in that room, so to speak, and how the society out there, like Sophie so wonderfully, said, it's about understanding what dominant society the advantages, what advantages are given to certain people at certain times within our society, and that being the dominant norm, and how when you don't fit that dominant norm, you will experience oppression and power over. And you know how our systems are set up in that way. And this, I'm going to keep coming back to as I process this, as I come to terms with this and also think about land and land ownership and access to land, and who determines that access as well?

And to me, this is really important so children often have diminished power over what they can say, what they can access, what they can learn. And this has a consequence in building their inner ability to know what they want, know what they need, and their self-esteem and self-confidence. So these ideas around consent and self-direction are really important, and they are part of what I would consider a really healthy nature based practice. But of course, it's not just in the practices that I'm involved with. It's also within work practices, it's within education practices. It was in the way we organize systems and society. And I really felt the importance last week of acknowledging that, of course, the relationship with a natural world is often one of extraction, one of dominance of humans. And when we look at this with a different lens, with an ecological lens, there isn't a situation where something out there is dominating something else. Everything is working with everything else, and everything is kind of seeking balance, seeking homeostasis, and that's how we're trying to work in the natural world.

And the important thing for me is looking at the role of the human within that, and how we can create greater balance, and I am really interested in following this thread of listening to the natural world and gaining more information as well. So it's like feeding my head my knowledge that kind of side, but also really exploring different ways of knowing and being in relation with, in this case, the natural world, and really kind of listening and finding out well, what would be beneficial for this land and this place, rather than coming in and making a whole bunch of assumptions, which, you know, we are being primed to do in this industrial age. We make an awful lot of assumptions that we can come along and that that river is for our benefit, that that piece of land is just for our benefit. And you know, we are seeing the we totally see the impact of that way of relating to the incredibly complex systems, ecological systems that sustain life.

And I feel that you know, understanding these ideas of agency and consent and power are absolutely essential if we are going to be part of a community that doesn't harm both the natural world and seeks to not harm other humans as well. And with that, I'm going to just close this, this episode with just thinking about some values that come from Sophie's work, some kind of core values in relation to education. And I'm interested in education. I'm also interested in health. I'm interested in the way we work because, like our cultural workings, the way things work around here. But these are some of the values, and I will put this on the show notes as well, folks. So one is really thinking about students leading at least some of their education, at least, let's start with that to be seen, heard, understood, respected and valued, and listening to the stories of the people that you are working alongside and creating imaginative opportunities for learning and letting go of our anxiety of that we're not in control all the time and again. I think this is so important that stress comes from being dominated and controlled and there's also, I think, a relief when you dominate in control, because especially if you're in an advantage. So there's this dynamic is, how is this domination and control creating stress in the other and how am I? Yeah, how am I participating in. At and remembering the stress that we feel when we're dominated and controlled and out of control, because in some ways, that feel well, that is why we end up feeling also stressed because we are out of control, especially when we're used to relationships of everything needing to be controlled.

So I'll leave you with that another 1/3. Core value is understanding that education and many of our systems are inherently political, and this means it's tied up with power, and that can produce and reproduce power imbalances. So how do we move towards equalizing power? And that will mean that we need to understand that there's going to be people that have more power and people that have less power, and how do we support those that have less power in order to get this more balance. So this is really important, because not everybody has the same power. Another one is thinking about learning that's really relevant and applicable in this world, and how education can have a role in this connection to the Wilder, less domesticated world, and building that connection. And I love this kind of idea of it being relevant, and linking it to real life situations. And I'm really curious and really looking into this another time about the actual impact of AI now, because we're having lots of discussions in our world about, you know, we've got all these kind of qualifications, and we're delivering for a school level, three qualifications and other things. And, of course, a lot of the paperwork, people are using AI to answer questions, which is plagiarism. However, you know, they're answering questions, so how are the ways that we're going to be working and devising and learning that are going to not be connected to AI?

I'm just holding that as a question as well, and again, learning, making learning relevant and useful so that we are learners. We're not Knowers, we're learners. This is a lifelong thing. This doesn't just happen in schools. And I'm also going to just say the fifth value again, these are not my values. I've expanded them a little bit, but these are not my values, but they are values that we can aspire to, that teaching generally, has been devalued and teachers have been mistrusted. They too have been unable to use their agency and make their decisions and respond to children and follow their needs. You know, most teachers are very aware of the importance of the relationship, the importance of school and the curriculum not always meeting many of children's needs, as I spoke to before, when I was thinking about special educational needs, mental health needs in schools today. So you know, giving teachers the power the authority to actually decide what they might bring to the table alongside what the students want to learn about as well.

So we're on a journey here. They often people talk about hospicing a culture. So I'm leaving you with that, and I hope it's food for thought. Thank you for staying with me. Do try and get a moment outdoors, even if it's standing and looking up at the sky, taking those five minutes to be present and taking those five minutes to perhaps not make an assumption about somebody today, I'm going to try and do that I have so much to learn to not jumping to conclusions and stay with us and see you next week.

Thanks for listening to this podcast and joining me for these bi weekly reflections, linking to the season right now. How about us all doing some personal coppicing our thoughts or our homes or habits that no longer work. So join me next week, when I'll be talking to Sam Williams, a head teacher of a state maintained nursery school in Bristol, where we'll be considering wilding the early years and the purpose of education while meeting the needs of children and families and in. Ensuring that those children have all the opportunities to learn and grow and make the most of these very important years. See you next week.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show.

To stay updated with The Wild Minds Podcast and get all the behind-the-scenes content. You can visit the www.theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at theoutdoorteacherUK and LinkedIn, Marina Robb.
The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb. See you next week. Same time, same place.