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(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Hello, and welcome to The Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature-based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, for a school outdoor learning and nature-based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.  

Join me as I discover new perspectives on what it is to be a human in a more than human world, challenging dominant paradigms, finding ways to be kinder on ourselves and harder on the system. I'm also the founder of the outdoor teacher and creator of practical online Forest School, outdoor learning and nature-based trainings for people in health, education and business. Tune in for interviews, insights, cutting edge and actionable approaches to help you to improve your relationship with yourself, others and the natural world.

Welcome to Episode 50, reclaiming values beyond capitalism. It's good to be back after a winter break and a Happy New Year to you all. In this New Year's episode, I'm a fair bit out of my depth in considering Neo liberalism, corporations and capitalism. Whilst I'm no expert on these themes, I've come to understand that to function and grow these economic and political theories and ideologies do underpin and justify extraction and growth way beyond what is sustainable so they need addressing. I continue to struggle with lots of thoughts and feelings about the roots of our ecological and social problems, I feel the tension of my intellectual pursuit to learn and understand alongside my desire to practically apply the knowledge and different ways of knowing within education and health and How they are inevitably all linked in many ways, since 1989 when I first became aware of the destruction of the rainforests and the deforestation of general forests, I'm not much further in knowing how We will create a long, lasting, better future. I feel very humbled by the complexity of the issues involved in real change, and know that I know very little about many of these subjects, yet here I am sharing my awkward thoughts so that together we can find ways to live sustainably and to become a participant in the living, evolving world.

How do large corporations or very wealthy individuals remain able to avoid tax and create products without consideration to the waste generated? This clearly needs addressing, and if not now, well, when? How can we teach climate change without addressing the social and economic factors? None of this is new. I get it, but we need to talk about it. We need to keep talking about it. I find myself returning again and again to the pursuit of new thoughts, new ideas, new ways of knowing that support a very different world view, which exist. They already exist, and are necessary, in my view, if we are to transform our systems, to not harm us or the more than human world, and of course, to not harm future generations of humans and Non-Humans, I want to thank you all who are engaged in this pursuit, and all the wisdom keepers and the hard work of people recognized or not, who continue to expand my perspective. Progress and ways of knowing and act in this world as usual, all the errors are mine. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Episode 50. Happy New Year to everybody. At this very moment, I'm grateful that I'm indoors, that I got a shelter because it's howling wind outside and rain, so I'm extremely grateful to be warm and sheltered. So here we are together in 2025 I really hope that you found some moments, or perhaps days, to have a little bit of pause from everyday life, from work, whatever it is that you spend your time doing, and to have that time to reflect again before the world speeds up and everything starts again. As you know, being the wild minds podcast, for me, it's really important to try and tune in at different times of the year, if not more regularly than that, but to tune into the natural cycles, and this one in the winter, is definitely a reminder to go within, go inside and take the time. And yeah, that can be actually going inside by closing my eyes and having time to dream, to think, to imagine, or time just to time out, I suppose, is what I would say. And I really like this image also, of having a stone.

You know, when you have a stone and you throw it into some water, and all those ripples, you see those ripples kind of mirror just going out, out from where you throw in the stone, and then the water settles. And that kind of movement reminds me of the importance of that pause before you start again. And actually even just breathing, you know, taking a breath in and out, and being conscious of that before hurrying and starting something. So for me, that helps. So I can't get to this time of year without considering vision because, I guess for us, entering into a new year is also about thinking, Well, what, what do I actually want for this year ahead? And I really like to do what can be called a vision board. It doesn't have to be necessarily making something material, but actually giving myself a moment to consider the things that that I would like to prioritize in the next year.

I mean, we talk about vision, in a sense, is a tool to prioritize things that might matter to me or to you in the future. And I like to write words. I like to get a piece of paper, get some old magazines, and cut out images or words that that I'm attracted to, that help me anchor something about the next year and the year ahead. But I've learned as well that this needs to come from a place, a feeling place, rather than goals of what I actually want to happen. And I love that because it allows the future to be less prescriptive, and also protects me in a way, about not wanting to control or imagine I actually know, and there's this quality of unfolding that seems really important.

So yes, we might have an intention, or I might have an intention of things that I want to bring into my life in the future, that represent things that matter, but I want to leave for myself anyway, enough space for things to emerge and to unfold. Because I can't I know that I can't imagine more than where I am right now, and I want to leave space for the mystery to emerge as well. Now, being at the beginning of the year, the wild minds podcast really is about offering conversations that intend to focus on and develop ideas that could move us towards a mindset, move me towards a mindset that is not. Not harming others or ourselves on the natural world, but I understand that harm is often unintentional, and in the end, we are always ending the lives of the things that we eat, for example. So there is a sense of a naturalness about life and death, but this is something different. This is something around really looking at the things we do and how they might impact ourselves, others, or the natural world.

So that's one of the kind of underlying intentions around this podcast, and I'm really motivated to participate in how our societies can genuinely create lives that together don't harm all the ecological systems that we're part of, and to feel that I'm actually part of this ecology that I'm participating in it, as I said, I eat things, and then eventually I will be eaten, even if it's just the microbes. And I get that this kind of being in that awareness, can be extremely difficult when we're brought up in what is often called the industrial capitalist system with Neo liberal ideology, which we're going to talk about a little bit later on, which effectively disassociates us from these natural cycles. And I'm using the word disassociate, which is often used in terms of our nervous systems and our feelings, where we can actually stop feeling there's something about the way we're brought up that really moves us in a way that stops us feeling and this is the theme that's going to continue, and something to be really aware of in this work of personal growth, but also our own relationship to the natural world.

So in the end, I accept that I have been born into a very specific mindset, a way of thinking and understanding the world that always seems to enforce this, this forgetting, this kind of general amnesia that our lives rely on the lives of so many other beings, like plants and animals, but also on the elements. These qualities, these chemicals, these moving particles that that generate water and generate all this life around us, I always question and try to act in a way that moves the dial within our education and health systems to a healthier, fairer needs supporting system, a system that develops values that don't constantly promote them and us, this constant duality that denies the complexity of our beliefs and our own human experience.

So how can we prepare children for a changing world? That's one of the themes of this work, within education, for sure, but also within young people, within the health system. And of course, we also are these children that are now supposedly grown up. So how can we prepare ourselves for a changing world. So we know, and it's going to be a focus of this year, being that it's 2025 we know that the UK Government sustainable sustainability and climate change strategy states that by this year, all education settings will have a nominated sustainability lead and put in place a Climate Action Plan. Now this is not statutory. It is mandate. And it is saying, I mean, the if you read these documents, they say that teachers are required to be impartial when teaching about climate change. So I feel strongly that we can't really remain impartial when we understand that something as complex and as life changing, as our climate changing is a consequence of our social lives, a consequence of our governing lives, our political lives, and a consequence of our buying and selling systems, our corporations, because our entire industrial economic. System does continue to put profits before land ethics. And what do I mean by land ethics? Well, what I mean is that a land ethic is that profits gained can't be separated from the care of the land, so we can't be continually looking to make profits whilst at the same time knowing that we're harming these ecological systems the land.

Now we, the people, everyday people, are aware that the powers that these corporations have can give them the ability to hire legal professionals, draw up legislation and effectively make sure that they can continue business as usual, but I feel that millions of us, millions of everyday people, actually would much prefer to have laws that support healthy food systems that actually make sure that we if we're producing something, that we think about the end result of the product that we're producing, like clothes, for example, where we're dumping clothes, and that our homes are built to higher standards, for example, that make sure that we are able to be more sustainable and in effect, not actually cause harm. So I sat at a meal on Boxing Day, and somebody was talking about how actually, many politicians end up working for corporations at the end of their career.

Now I haven't really done any research into that yet. I'd be really interested to actually look at how many prime ministers end up working corporations once they finish their career. We're going to actually have a little look into that. So bear that in mind. I haven't checked this, but I'm sure, regardless of that, the individual people do not have the kind of power to stop the corporations doing what they do. So we're not directly responsible for the huge profit making decisions that these corporations actually make, we are responsible for what we actually do and don't do. And I'm leaning into this because I do feel guilt for some of the things that I do and shame for the way that I can decisions I can make in the life that I'm living, particularly as I do care about the natural world and I want us to have healthy systems, and I know that my actions don't always follow that. And I'm also finding a way through this by being with that awkwardness and the discomfort of that and at the same time realizing, hang on a second, there are political forces and governance out there that is absolutely exasperating and creating these problems.

And then marketing for us to say that we, you know, we put using plastic bags, for example, is our responsibility, which it is as an individual. But that is really going to make the difference when we know for sure that we can create so called plastic bags out of biodegradable materials, and that can be done at source. So really it's, I feel like it's a tension there for actually feeling into what we do individually, but also a real tension that actually corporations and politicians have a huge responsibility to make changes and to support changes in the law to enable us to have a society that is more regenerative and more sustainable, and we as individuals in our development of the whole of who we Are, when we start to think about the wholeness of who we are, there is in my in my belief, not a way to go forward without actually integrating everything that we feel is both good and bad that we may have done, and at the same time to not punish ourselves for that, to stay with the trouble of these feelings and then see what happens.

There is something incredibly important in not disassociating and actually staying with the sensation and the feelings that arise when we see something or behave in a way that we know is not morally good. So we have to hold them both, the light the shadow, work with them both and not operate as if they're not there, that they're not both there. Now I want to keep returning as this beginning podcast to the whole right to roam. I've recorded two episodes around this already, one last season, one to begin the year, and I keep returning to the importance of both our access to land, especially when we're considering the importance of our health and well-being, and how that the how that improves when we have access to the natural world, but also who owns the land now, our access to land and the paradigm that follows from ownership of the land, paradigm meaning the kind of consequential way we live our lives, the kind of world view that we actually hold because of what actually follows from owning the land. So our paradigm that follows is implicit in the world view that underpins our lives at the moment.

So in the wild, when you're alone and could be prey, could be eaten, you feel that you are not exceptional anymore in that moment, if you've ever been in a situation where your life is in danger, you know that you are no longer exceptional. You are part and parcel of whatever is happening right there. And then you feel the life, you fear the death, and it reminds us immediately, it reminds me of my animal self, and it's through really feeling that that you can perceive other animals and plants and the more than human world as subjects, as beings that are sentient, alive, rather than objects. So how many of us actually get a chance to be so in touch with that not, not very much in the world that we live in, because we're protecting ourselves all the time. But nevertheless, as an animal, animal to animal, we are absolutely the same in the sense that we are though, we are vulnerable. We're taught that we can take any part of the so-called insentient world. We're taught that we can extract and use parts of the world because they are in sentient it's that agreement, unconscious agreement, that thing is a thing, and that, in turn, gives us the permission to say, well, this is our right. We can do that. We don't have to do that with any respect or reverence or thankfulness for the lies we take. And this really does underpin what is a wild mind compared to a domestic mind. And you know that I repeat this quite a lot in our in the podcast that we speak about, but every time I'm trying to return to this with a with a different lens, with a different perspective, with a different way in to kind of shift the paradigm to see us as part of a living world.

So Stephen buna says that ecologically to Earth, living beings are not organized by a hierarchy of value, and everything has a specific purpose. So think about that with me, that from an Earth's perspective, ecologically to Earth, living beings are not organized by a hierarchy of value as everything. Everything has a specific purpose. Ecologically. There is no higher or lower now knowledge, the knowledge that has often come from the scientific paradigm, knowledge that dissects the world. World into parts is actually anti Animus. You know, I've been asking the question now, what? What is animism to actually believe that the world is alive, but when we split and dissect the world into parts and use it and make things from it, we are basically creating a world view that does not see the whole system and does not see what we're doing on our little individual separation of parts onto the whole system, but rather it focuses, often, in the worlds that we're in, on the creation of products from the materials that we've extracted.

And I am a little bit obsessed at the moment about plastics, because you hear and read and know so much about the impact of plastics and micro plastics and other products like agrochemicals that we're putting on our Land to enable the growing, the fast growing of what is often monocultures, but that in us that is also poisoning the land and the rivers. So we when we don't look at the whole system, we're kind of focused on tiny parts of what we're doing, and we're not experiencing or thinking about the responsibility of what happens to that product and the impact of those products on people's health, or on the health of a non-human, or more than human world, and, of course, Earth's ecosystems. And I'm not sure a long way around. I'm not sure how we as teachers or as people that are just people, how we are able to be impartial to this kind of knowledge, and I think the way that we do that is by disassociating, because to feel it is hard and it is work, and it does take an ability to hold yourself with compassion and kindness and forgiveness in order to be able to feel the pain and the grief of that. And this isn't me saying that we spend all our time in that we also can be in our time of range of emotions, of joy, of laughter, of fun. I hope that we have that. But to not be with what's going on, to not have systems, political systems, governance systems, corporations, actually, supporting a much healthier system. We're going to be we are.

We're in trouble and I also feel there's a real contradiction that we encourage independent thinkers and learning. And how can we unlearn these things once we start reading about them. How can we carry on and in a way that is it just continues to harm the planet. Now, since the 1970s which is actually a year after I was born. I was born in 1969 as I understand it, we in the UK adopted what is called Neo liberal ideology. Sometimes I need to go in and I need to figure out, well, what do they mean by all these words? And sometimes these words are there in a way that so hard to understand and that they're only there for, let's say the academic and the theory, or the people that read a lot or understand these terms, and I have to go in and investigate. So what I understand by this ideology is that it was supposed to or it is purported to create social wellbeing this ideology that there would be more wealth for all of us, more security, more safety. A lot of this, it rests on the idea that we as humans are materialists. So again, what do I mean by that? I'm using these words, and it really means that we value material possessions, you know, things that we can buy and sell over experiences or personal relationships, and that most of us are really concerned with acquiring wealth and material possessions.

So this Neo liberal ideology, made a situation that we could sell, we could sell more, and from that create income, which we're all involved in. And the question really comes as to how much do we need? How much do we need to have as an income to be. Enough? What is enough? And I'm often wondering, like, what is enough to be able to feel safe, enough, secure enough, to be able to have a break, have a holiday, to have a roof over our heads? What is that in the West, what do you need? Do we need 60,000 40,000 what is it? 80,000 100,000 what is it? And I'm really curious as well about how, as a society, it's really difficult to speak about money and what we have, and the shame of having more, or what you know, the privilege as well of having more. But there's something what is enough? How much is this buying going to make us happy? And of course, then that a enables us to turn our head a little bit to the reality that there are billionaires, I think there's something called center millionaires out there that that have so much money and that the inequality is so vast, it's hard to then to actually be forgiving in a sense of where we're at it and what we're doing, because we're not really encouraged to really question how it Is that we have a system that is so supportive of profits and large corporations and individuals that have so much when so many others have so little.

So again, I'm bringing this in, and you might be thinking, oh my god, what is she now going into? I have to get back to this to be able to understand how education is what it is, how the health system is what it is, how we can really move the current system into a better place for more people and the natural world. And I can't avoid talking about politics, law, corporations and so on. And there's obviously so much more to this than I'm even going to grasp or be able to speak to but this is what I've got so far. There is the potential to legislate that manufacturing of all goods is made to last as long as possible and not stop working in a few years. Yeah, that we can actually do that. Our political parties can do this, as long as they're not only trying to prioritize the profits of companies. This isn't a political Podcast. I'm interested in looking at values, and I understand that different political parties have different values, however, they are still all operating from this notion. This, not this notion, this reality of free market capitalism. This is about, well, this is a fact. Is like, it's framework that encourages this free trade, minimal rules, business profitability, which we know is linked to shareholders, and that the success, the most successful people are the ones that are rewarded with wealth, but we also know that these businesses are not sustainable and are impacting all our natural living systems, our water, our air, our land. They're all impacting it.

You know, the use of mobile phones. I don't have the figure, but I'll put it in the show notes of the number of mobile phones that are thrown away every year, when actually they could be created to last I was reading an article which was sharing that currently mobile phones are made in a way that you can't open them to change the battery or do that. So that was called planned obsolescence. So we're now throwing into the to the landfill all these mobile phones which could be repaired, for example. So this not having these rules in place, this idea of free market is, I can't even say the word, can I? It's wrong, it's wrong, and it's not in any. Way, really free. Where's the cost? Who is bearing the cost? I'll leave that with you to think about. So as I come near the end of this, I want to talk about a major topic that is coming through from last season to what we've just spoken about in the last podcast with Lewis, where we are learning, I'm learning and exploring more about the right to Rome and who the land is owned by in England.

Now you can read more about that. But inevitably, if we're thinking about caring for the natural world and caring for people's wellbeing in that relationship, we end up going to places in our own story, in our own history, around how land was acquired, both here in England and overseas. Now, for many many years, I've had different experiences in different countries where I've spent time with different indigenous people, and I have a huge respect, and I'm humbled by so much of the wisdom that comes from different older traditions and understanding how they steward the land and How they historically have governed themselves and these peoples, of course, within our current system, have been trying to be heard, trying to have a voice, trying to get us, with this Western industrial mindset, to Listen. And it's very hard to actually be in a situation where these people can actually have a voice and be heard, but when you do, there are some very key things that come out. Now, with regard to land, there's a whole different way of looking at the idea of land and of course, what is called traditional ecological knowledge, remembering that peoples around the world, you know, pre the industrial revolution, not in the West, but they maintain these sustainable relationships through very different ideas, thoughts and world views than our industrial world view.

So, for example, in 1492 the Haudenosaunee peoples in Northern America already had democracy and a constitution based on peace, equity and justice. When we look at our history in the West, what you see is images and stories full of battles and crusades, and it's from the setting in the west that we exported. Our religion and our warlike mentality to other lands. And what is not often shared is that in the minds of the Christian people at that time, guided by the Pope, who actually said that if there were no Christians on these lands, then these people could declare the lands terra nullius, which actually meant empty lands, regardless of the people there. Now I'm also wanting to say in this that these in a similar way, that I'm not trying to tarnish one people over another, people white against black or individuals. I'm looking at systems of oppression. And yes, we have a place and we participate in that, but we are not directly responsible for what people back in that time enforced and told other people to do on their behalf, right? That's how I see it. Nevertheless, it's so important to learn and to study and to research and to feel what these often-unwritten stories teach us about why we are where we are.

So at that time, the people were Christian. And because some people still are Christian, and there's nothing against people having a love of a god they choose, or listening to the teacher's teachings of Jesus, for example, this is nothing to do with this. This is about power and control. So here we have a time in history where, when the people went to these places, if those people were not Christians, they weren't considered of equal value, and the lands were declared terror. Nullius, okay. Now what we don't understand is that also, for many peoples around the world, the idea of buying and selling land just didn't exist. There was no idea of owning water or air. So in that world view, they couldn't imagine that they couldn't see that they had dominion over land and water and air, because in that world view, they felt and understood that they were part of this landscape, that their relationship and their behavior and their responsibility directly related to what all the other animals and elements and everything else, and what they're doing, what we're trying to relearn now, actually what we mean by ecological systems. And because they didn't have that, they there a law was created, which was called the law of discovery, of which land-based people were not included. So just like that, through obviously a lot of violence, their land was no longer their own and ownership became was definitely a shock to these people that ownership became a reality.

This meant that they had no land tenure rights and that they were only eventually given occupational rights. So unlike what was happening in the UK at this time, with the enclosures and the ownership of the lands and the commons being removed, that they too also had no rights, and the land was owned and fenced. Now, what was so important in the world view of these land-based peoples was that their governance, their way of sharing and making decisions for the benefit of the people, did not privatize, profit property. So where we end up now is that hundreds of years later, now, here we are entering 2025 and we all know that it's all about property and ownership, and that across Europe, America's the world. It's, that is where we define our security by owning and making huge amounts of money on ownership. Now remembering that it was only in the 1800s early 1900s that, at that point, it was men with money or property who could vote, and it was at that time that you could have a slave or more than one slave. So it all connects to the idea that we can privatize and objectify the living world and own it. And, you know, I think, as an educator and as someone that's wanting to enable more access of people to land and also in with an underlying value system that looks after the diversity of species, that This is hugely important who's making the decision and who owns that land.

And of course, we know it is on that land that you can then extract and take and in no way have what you take costed, right? So here we find ourselves in a very difficult situation with those with so much property and land accrues so much wealth and power, and these corporations and individuals and people who have access to that, not forgetting that a lot of you know the system, the tax that people can pay is not. Being paid back into the system for the people. It's, there's tax havens and things like that. So we find ourselves where these corporations or individuals have huge wealth and power and they don't have hardly any recourse to any laws or even moral laws. Instead, in this free market, we let the market direct our directions. What is this market but people creating products to buy and sell? So here we are as we enter 2025, only five years to the UK government strategy of net zero by 2030 there is certainly a lot to reflect on, and I know we can only do what we can do.

For those that don't know. The net zero strategy was published in 2021 and it does outline UK policies to decarbonise the UK economy. Well, the UK does have targets of 68% reduction in carbon emissions by 2030 and 78 reduction, percent reduction by 2030 all well and good, but this is one of the symptoms are emissions of this industrial society that I've been speaking about. And whilst we do need to address a move away from fossil fuels, a move away from corporations that have made vast amounts of money around the world in partnerships with countries that produce oil well. Of course, we need to do that. We all need to do that if we care about our children and our grandchildren and our grandchildren's grandchildren, if we're not just thinking about us now, about the future again, wisdom keepers from traditional peoples have told us this, and we know this. We know this. If we really feel and care about that, then we need to look and engage with the underlying roots of the problems we face together. We everyday people. I'm not trying to say I'm the same as you or I have the same situations. I know I the privileges that I have, but nevertheless, in the brackets of a certain income.

For the sake of it, let's go up from nothing to 100,000 pounds. We will do what we can the people we can, continue to do what we can and not, I hope, punish ourselves for what we can't do. But we also know that our personal actions are not going to change the levels of come in the atmosphere alone, we and all the other things that I'm touching on, we need political and corporate responsibility. Individually, we can pause. We can feel, we can take the time to digest. It's impossible to do this without pausing the running you can't hit a moving target. The more busy we are, the less we can feel. So we do need to pause, and then we can, with honesty and courage, allow ourselves the chance to see and feel what we don't want to see and feel. And I hope this sense of security and safety find ways to psychologically feel more secure and safe that don't rely on the building of more fences and separations and just looking after the number one, which is so hard in the society we've been growing we've grown up in.

So the conversations in this podcast will continue to invite us to learn more about what systemic transformations are possible to move the dial in as many steps as it takes to a different kind of civilization, hopefully an eco-civilization, one that replaces extraction and exploitation with a system that sets the conditions for all beings to thrive on a regenerated Earth, this does require us, require us to feel and not to disassociate. So shall we take a deep breath together and start with self-care? Fear, self, love and forgiveness. Shall we notice how our own thinking, my own thinking, notice when it replicates or amplifies the dominant system, the fear, the scarcity, the exceptionalism of humans and reflect on what is really going on and how we can right now next week, resource ourselves as much as possible, for we cannot dive into and hold the painful feelings without resourcing ourselves. Can I put ahead of work time to be with a friend this year? Can I be more accountable for my own tendency to blame and think than I know? Can I dig deeper? Can I stay with my own discomfort, shame, guilt, embarrassment, putting my head under the sand, and my sense and knowledge that I have entitlement that I haven't earned, but nevertheless, have been born as I am, born into this situation as we are.

What do I sacrifice to belong? What do I sacrifice to keep my mouth shut and to stay apparently safe, but in reality, I'm hiding what I think and feel and what matters to me. How is fear unconsciously running my life? As individuals, we are not accountable for all the problems. As Vanessa Andreotti says, We need to step forward or aside with self-discipline to do the work on ourselves so that we don't become the work for other people. And I can think about that in the terms of now, but also the future for our great grandchildren and Jeremy Lent, I've put all these references in the show notes that Jeremy lent says in his recent article, patterns of meaning around the world. Change makers, community organizers and researchers are working assiduously, laying down pathways towards this life affirming future, which is increasingly being called eco-civilization. We can and must envisage a world where corporations have been legally restructured to work for people and the planet, rather than merely profits, where there is a cap on the wealth of billionaires, and where enforceable rights of nature legislation looks out for the welfare of the other sentient beings with whom we share our world. And I'm going to finish with another quote from Vaclav Havel, who was the first president of Czechoslovakia from 1989 to 1992 about hope, because, after all, we're entering a new year, and here it is, either we have hope within us or we don't.

It is a dimension of the Soul, and it's not dependent on some observation of the world. Hope is an orientation of the spirit, an orientation of the heart. It transcends the world that is immediately experienced and is anchored somewhere beyond the horizons. Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously heading for success, but rather an ability to work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed. Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out. It is hope above all, which gives the strength to live and continually try new things. And with that, I wish all of you this kind of hope in 2025 and beyond.

Thanks so much for listening and staying with me. Me, as I struggle with these issues, I'm very aware that as we face all these problems, we do what we can, and actually we don't have to always wait for the external systems to change, and can rely on our own inner resources and our inner imagination, spiritual practices, friends and the natural world to lean into. So join me next week when I speak with Amy who has worked within social forestry for 12 years and has measured the impact of nature connection for well-being, look forward to seeing you then.

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To stay updated with The Wild Minds Podcast and get all the behind-the-scenes content. You can visit the www.theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at theoutdoorteacherUK and LinkedIn, Marina Robb.
The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb. See you next week. Same time, same place.