Transcript

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(transcribed by AI so there maybe some small errors!)

Marina Robb: Hello, and welcome to the Wild Minds Podcast for people interested in health, nature based therapy and learning. We explore cutting edge approaches that help us improve our relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world. My name is Marina Robb, I'm an author, entrepreneur, Forest School outdoor learning and nature based trainer and consultant, and pioneer in developing green programs for the health service in the UK.

Welcome to Episode 37 rewilding our imagination. In this episode, I'm so excited to speak with Dylan Walker, who describes himself as part entrepreneur, part ecologist and park educator. Dylan uses innovative techniques to spark our imaginations, inspiring visions of a wild world where humans play a central and positive role. He passionately believes that cultivating a deep cultural connection with nature is the only way to safeguard our precious wildlife for the future. This enlightening conversation left me feeling optimistic and deeply contemplative, about the urgent need to revolutionize how we teach and learn about our climate and our vital role as a keystone species.

So Hi, Dylan, thank you so much for joining me at the wild minds podcast. Thank you. Welcome.

Dylan Walker: Hi, Marina. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. I'm excited.

Marina: Thank you. Well, I did tell you that we're going to share a little bit of gratitude. And I really like starting the podcast this week, because it kind of grounds me a little bit. So my gratitude is actually to be part of this Woodland Hills Community woodland. It's called Lawton Greenwood. And it feels wonderful not only because I can take my practice there, but also because I think it's pretty rare to be part of a woodland, it's being looked after for the community rather than private ownership. So I'm grateful for that. And it's not far from where I live, and I can get to appreciate, do you have anything you'd like to share?

Dylan: Well, I mean, I definitely support that view, because I also live near Lawton Greenwood and have the pleasure of visiting it. And there is something I don't know, it's something invigorating about walking through this beautiful place and knowing that the community owns it, and the community manages it. And I because I am part of the community. So I feel that even though I don't actively get involved in that process, and I know you do Marina and I really appreciate that, I feel like I have a stake and I have a I have a piece of that wonderful place. So that's great. But I guess I don't know why. But it just popped into my head. I'm grateful for the rain. I'm gonna say I'm grateful for the rain today, because it started raining. And we've had the wettest 18 months on record. So there have been moments when I've used expletives about the rain. And I've said that I'm a bit tired of it. But I did also hear a really cool podcast about the health benefits of it. For example, the air is cleaner and less full of pollutants. There are chemicals in the vegetation in the soil that are released that are good for us. And we should all go out in the rain or just after its rained, and enjoy nature. So this is a great time to get out there. So I'm going to be grateful for that.

Marina: Yeah, I appreciate that. Because it is pouring with rain right now. And funnily enough, even though I too have been in the rain for a lot in the last 18 months, I've today actually thought kind of suits a little bit how I feel. So I was also grateful for that. So yeah, so I'm, yeah, I'm really interested in talking to you for loads of reasons. But one that really sticks out for me is this word that's becoming more popular about rewilding, and within that is kind of like, well, I suppose in a way if you don't mind, I'd like to kind of just start with what Is rewilding because a lot of people out there will hear it, but they might not really know what it means. And perhaps it means different things in different contexts. And I know you've got an ecology background amongst many other things. But would you just share, share a little bit about what that is? And then maybe that will take us on a little journey as we talk?

Dylan: Yeah, that sounds good. I mean, you know, I think it is many different things to different people. And that's a good thing. Words don't always have to have a single definition. You know, I think there's a lot of exciting things to explore around kind of rewarding ourselves. You know, the rewilding of people, is a really exciting prospect. rewilding, from a nature conservation perspective, is viewed as a sort of relatively recent sort of revolution, if you like in thinking, certainly over the last kind of 20 years, particularly the last 10 years. And I guess over the last five years, it's really become kind of part of the kind of public consciousness and, and everybody is starting to use that term. I believe in it. I think it's really exciting. What is it? I mean, one definition that this is about nature, taking care of itself, it's about us stepping back, and not sort of overly managing overly gardening nature, really, I suppose in a way, and just letting nature do its thing. But the sort of caveat to that is, it also needs a little bit of a helping hand to be able to do that. And the reason for that is that we now realize that if we kind of go back several 1000 years, we realized that this country had a whole bunch of large animals, which unfortunately, most of which became extinct. So, you know, before after the last sort of glaciation, there were lots of wild horses roaming the countryside, there were bison, roaming the countryside, they were, you know, they were several species of deer as there are today. They were bears, they were wolves, they were beavers, all these animals, yes, it's amazing to be able to imagine what that would have been like, all these animals were kind of roaming around, they were kind of stomping crashing through vegetation, knocking down trees, you know, chasing each other around, digging, building flooding, and all of this stuff was going on. And what those animals basically did was create lots of niches for other species, other plants, fungi, other animals, birds, insects, etc. And it's very difficult for us. Now those animals have gotten to actually kind of replicate those processes. So what nature conservationists have tried to do over the last kind of 50 or 100 years is exactly that, how can we somehow, you know, can we coppice woodland, which is kind of replicating the work of a beaver, for example, that brings lots of light into the woodland, suddenly butterflies do better in those areas, opens it up for woodland flora, etc, etc. So we've been trying to replicate those processes. But we've realized that we can only kind of be a shadow really of these animals, we don't understand exactly how they function and what they do. And they're doing this stuff, you know, for 17 hours a day, every single day. So when we say rewilding processes, and natural processes, but with a helping hand, often we're talking about how do we find a way to either bring the species back or use kind of domestic animals that would, you know, kind of replicate the way that they will behave in order to make more niches or more homes for nature? And that movement is really, really exciting. Yeah, and it's and it's and it's really getting some fantastic results at a time when unfortunately, the UK is one of the most sort of nature depleted countries in the world, unfortunately.

Marina: Well, that really surprised me because you mentioned that before and even though I'm involved in you know, the outdoors and outdoor education, it's really hard to get my head around that this is one of the most nature depleted countries because you know, that idea is in my or not idea in my experience, and I guess it I could be living in a silo in my only little world, but you know, like, I can see the elder outside and it's very green. Yes, because of the rain. And so I don't in and it's hard to really feel that we're in such depletion. And I guess that makes me wonder where we get our information from our baseline because people talk about baseline, don't they that had we been like what I see now feels like it's lush, and I'm out and it's sunny in it, I can play in the woods and yet, perhaps, even 20 years ago, I would have been surrounded by insects. Do you know what I mean? So how do we how do we do that? Then how do we get have a real sense that there is a depletion if we're not, if all we have is our direct experience in that moment?

Dylan: I think it's really, yeah, I do think that is a really difficult thing. And as obviously, more and more of us are living in cities, we're living away from nature. I mean, there is nature in cities, of course, but, you know, we're living away from the areas of highest biodiversity often, it's harder and harder to make that connection. And to see that shift. I mean, I did read a piece of research is actually about climate change, not about biodiversity or nature. But it basically showed that, even with something like climate change, let's say, we suddenly get much more flooding, or we get, you know, we get these high temperature shifts, it takes about three or four or five years for people to actually get used to that change and perceive it as being normal, but just five years. So, you know, we're obviously seeing these changes happening right now around climate, but we're normalizing them. Because that's what we do, once we see a pattern sort of changing a little bit, we get used to it, and then we just accept it as normal. So I think that's really difficult. I guess we have to trust the science. But also, we can also go back a long way as well, you know, we can go back into the literature. You know, if you read the writings of people who were, you know, artists and folk tale tellers, and storytellers and authors going back into the 19th century, they were also bemoaning the lack of butterflies and the decline in wildflower species, which, to us seems absolutely incredible now, because what they must have been able to see that we can't imagine, you know, they were living in a much richer time. So

Marina: yeah, that's, I mean, well, I didn't, I was thinking about getting old when you were speaking and realizing that, you know, you don't see a friend and 10 years, and maybe they don't tell you directly. But you know, you look a lot older. But as you watch yourself, you don't see the changes. You don't I mean, you get used to it. But so I guess we you're like you're right, we have to kind of trust and have, you know, lean into Yeah, our musicians or artists are scientists, who can tell us look, this is true, you know, we are in a completely different situation now than we were, even if we may go to parks. And, you know, we don't know, we don't understand that much. I mean, the truth is, we're not really educated a lot about how things work and how things work together. And you know, how actually, we're all so connected and related to each other, I think and, and when you, by the way, you define that very clearly to me. So that was really helpful. And I guess it made me also think about the land actually and private ownership that, you know, if we're going to kind of allow nature to do its thing. That's quite hard if you don't have land, right? Even you need to have land, presumably, and I'm very conscious, having even started this conversation about community land, how so much of the land is in private ownership? And I wonder what you think about that. I wonder where you think some of the tension is, and when of some of the opportunity might be with that? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Dylan: Yeah, I think it's, you know, maybe it's one of the biggest reasons that we are the most nature depleted, one of the most nature depleted countries in the world. I don't know, in the sense that. Well, I think, you know, I did read a statistics while ago that basically the population of hey, was he roughly, I think is about 20,000. That's the number of people who own half the land in England. Wow, that is a staggeringly small number of people with an incredibly huge influence over the way that our countryside and our wild places are managed. Now, I'm a big believer in citizens assembly, crowd sourced information, the knowledge that irritate that's retained with you know, inside our communities and there'll be lots of those people that hey, was he sighs group of people who are doing an incredible job to protect nature. But let's imagine it was 50 million people that whose role it was to manage that natural space, both for our immunity for our opportunity to grow food in the way that the wider community we'd like to see it grown. For, you know, for nature for art, how different with that space look, then and, you know, we're a long way from that. From that kind of being a reality, but I do feel like there's a change coming, and we need to make steps and places like Lawson Greenwood. To be honest, I feel like the lighthouse is you know, on our coast like people should go there too should experience it and kind of think, well, we need more of this. How can we, as a collective group of people deliver more long term Greenwoods for our communities?

Marina: You see, now I've got it's almost political, which I do not mind. I mean, I don't need to go down party politics at all, but it just is an idea that, you know, here we have this land, and it's historically owned and passed down probably through families and people arrive in this world with the privilege of that. And I guess a lot of that land would have been farmed in a particular way. And we're attached to tradition and things that we've inherited and ways of thinking that we understood was good I mean, the war I always hear stories about the war and you know, we need to dig for Britain, you know, have our own, you know, look after says which, in a con context of threat and a threatening context, you could understand why that was so important and yet, what I hear within your words are like, okay, so hang on a second, if we've got all these people that owning this land, but hang on this land could be inverted commas, rewelded, or let's say restored to nature. But you also in the same breath saying to me, Well, yeah, but how did you know? It's kind of like if we had citizens like peep the people saying, or having access to or bringing their ideas? I wonder how different that would look. So I mean, it's a lot in there for me in the sense of, we don't have a lot of rights, because it's not our land. Okay. But are you saying that if we were to ask people, their image? I mean, have you asked people about what they would love to see this land? Being? I mean, have we got a week and we educated enough to even know that answer? I wonder?

Dylan: That's a really good quit. I mean, there's so much to unpack there, isn't there?

Marina: I always do this. I'm terrible. I kind of 10 questions in one sentence. I'm sorry about that. But I'm letting it kind of percolate while I asked the question. So

Dylan: that's cool. I think, like, you know, there are lots of indigenous people, possibly all indigenous people who view land ownership as an anathema. Really, you know, that it's like, why what, you know, like, land has existed for not millions, but billions of years, a piece of paper sent to you from your government that says, you own this thing, the land, the rock, the trees, the river, the you know, I mean, when you put it like that, it kind of sounds bonkers, doesn't it? Like, what is that? And I think what comes from this sort of indigenous perspective is this feeling that of respect for nature, it's not about owning the land, and thereby owning the natural assets, you know, that sit within it, is about being part of a human community, which is then part of a much bigger community of wild creatures, and even, you know, indigenous, many indigenous communities go further and also talk about inanimate nonliving things such as water, rivers, rocks, there's also having, you know, being worthy of respect, which they should be because they are part of this system, equal players in this system. I think we have to look to that wisdom, really look to that wisdom, and think how can we somehow move in that direction. And I think, going out and talking to our communities, and particularly kind of dreaming with them, stepping away from the kind of all of the issues and the challenges that our communities currently face, which are sort of overwhelming, and demoralizing. And say, yeah, don't worry about all that for a minute, let's just step away, and let's dream of the future that we would like to have. And when we've got that dream, that collective dream that we share together, then we can start asking questions, how do we turn that into a reality? And I've been stuck increasingly doing that with local communities around here and it is utterly inspiring some of the ideas and the concepts and the imagination that people use, and you can look at this stuff and go it's all doable actually, every single one of these ideas some had some are tough to achieve and some are actually very easy to achieve.

Marina: You got to give me some examples then because that's exciting. And I'm also imagining I mean a lot I'm also think about children as well in this but do give me some just some examples of some of this. Yeah, imagination is inspiring kind of visions that people, local people are saying they could see and would want to be part of you.

Dylan: Yeah, there's so many I mean, I try and give us a few exact some of them really. It will depend who you talk to about how simple they are, of course. So one was, what if we switched all the lights off in our town at night? Now, you could imagine that could just be done. I don't know, for one week in a year, like you call it the dark sky week, where everybody where the you know, the objective is to get everybody out under the stars, you know, and taking away that veil of light and giving bats a break. But it's such a simple ask actually saves costs and saves energy saves money for the council. So that's the lovely one. Somebody said, yeah, that's really nice. Somebody said, what if we asked landowners to double the width of our footpaths? So instead of being you know, whatever it is two meters, it's five meters or 10 meters? And what if we paid landowners as we do for many things to be able to do that? So people didn't just walk through it. Really narrow strip of nature, they walked through something that felt a little bit more like they were in the wild. And obviously, it would be good for it because nature itself.

Marina: I love that. It's great, isn't it? Yeah, I could, I mean, maybe there'll be more please do say more about that by love. Well, I love that anyway, this notion that we kind of again, we are very traditional, we're habitual creatures, and then given the opportunity to just moment to like you say, dream or imagine us this other capacity that we have suddenly, something appears and yeah, what I'm, why not? I mean, when you said that, I was like, I just love hedges. And I know, there used to be a lot of hedgerows many more in this country. And it just be so like, Okay, done with fences, hedges, you know, and immediately, you would just increase wildlife, wouldn't you? And it would be just so wonderful to have that. I mean, I'm lucky because I live in a village where you know, where I live in. And actually, there are no streetlights. No one knows that about ringmo. Yeah. So you know, and I love that. So when you said that, it's like it's amazing. And of course, you have the people going, oh, you know, it's not safe without lights. And I appreciate that if you are vulnerable. It's not like, oh, no, that's not it's a fair enough. But the benefit is kind of that risk benefit. And the benefit when that's not there is exactly as you say, you walk out, and suddenly there's more sky, you know. And these really, there's good for our well being, and it's good for our sense of freedom, I think and space that is also really valuable. And also what I was wondering is because, you know, we were talking about not yet in this podcast, but we've had a little conversation around sort of nature conservation as it has been. And, I was thinking about that. And I was thinking about even the World Wildlife Fund, you know, I've been connected to them for many years. It's the panda. It's these big, iconic species, which we love. And then I was reading recently about the earthworms. And I was thinking, and somebody was reframing that for me as the earthworm being a keystone species, you know, or not, and it just kind of my brain has been, you know, it's like, and I think there's something in that isn't there, there's something in that we're kind of brought up on this diet of fantastic, wonderful. And somehow we're missing the every things that are going that we can't see that are so important that connect everything and I wonder if you'd speak about that as well in the kind of nature conservation as we've known it, and perhaps how we could reimagine nature conservation.

Dylan: Yeah, again, there's so many things I'd love to talk about, I think, for me, nature connection can be about those really big, amazing, charismatic animals. And I think it's really important that people have the opportunity to see some of these animals. I mean, you know, I used to work in marine conservation, and I've very fortunate to see in blue whales, you know, in the wild, it's the big, biggest animal that's ever lived ever. And it takes your breath away to see that to see an animal like that in the wild. And, you know, everybody should have that opportunity. It's not an easy opportunity to take. But equally, if not more important, the opportunities to inspire people with the everyday and in fact, you know, there's more and more research that shows that connecting people with nature isn't about the wilderness or the wild. It's about where we live. It's about the you know, what's under our feet. It's about looking closer at the bumblebee that's just gone into the front slough flower, you know, it's about sticking your head in a pond and seeing what's you know what's underneath the surface of the water. It's about that's what really gives people and children an emotional and an intellectual connection, which is both of which are absolutely essential if we are to care about wildlife and biodiversity and want to protect it into the future. So, for me, that's really exciting. I think the other thing, which we've kind of touched upon in a way is this visioning and dreaming. So again, there's research to show that if we can provide people with the opportunity to see to visualize the future that they would like to have in some way, and that could be for a very short period of time. So, you know, you could watch a film, or we could do some, you know, artistic representation of it. Or we could go to another place where it exists. So you know, lots of people now are going to rewilding sites across Europe and going, we want that's our future, this stuff for the wildlife with that we don't have because they've got the bison and they've got the, you know, the wild horses and everything else, we need that. So but all that is really envisioning a future that's in the present in another place. So that is very exciting to think that we could go into a school and literally play something out for half an hour. And that's enough to give a group of children that grasp that, that there's a brighter future that they could strive for. But not only that, the research also shows that people find it easier not only to visualize that future, but to understand the steps that they need to take to get to that future, just by having those moments. So, you know, you can see that if we step away from all this kind of craziness and this distraction that we have in our world, and just take the time to actually do this dreaming, and there's many different ways of achieving that, then suddenly, we have the motivation, the understanding and the desire to be able to get there. And that's what as communities, we really need to do the nature conservation movement, I think we've been stuck in a very sort of rigid science focused approach to nature. And that is not helped our community or our biodiversity. And our communities, I think, to kind of get to these opportunities in a way that we should, I think we do need to take a bit of a kind of a long, hard look at ourselves, and I count myself in the nature conservation movement. So I've also been guilty of this, but there's a lot more that we can do.

Marina: So do you mean that like, in the nature conservation movement, we haven't, because of the science focus, let's say I'm going to study the plant or whatever? Is it because it's been so focused on one species and not the kind of relationships although I would have thought that was ecology? Or is it because Where are the people in that? It's kind of elitist? Is that what you're saying? Say a bit more? Because it is really, it does feel important? It's because there's a theme here about kind of participation, people feeling that they're part of it. As well.

Dylan: Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt the nature conservation is elitist. Because I mean, for example, many of these nature conservation charities have done an amazing job by the way of protecting, you know, some of our most endangered species, some of our critical habitats that we've lost so much of, but from a people perspective, and from an education and inspirational perspective, I do feel like we haven't been smart enough. So I mean, for example, let's imagine that our big nature conservation organizations, RSPB and a Wildlife Trust, I don't know what their makeup is, I've spent lots of time in rooms with people who work for those organizations. Most people I meet are scientists, I also meet educators, I'm guessing that there might be something like an 80% scientist or 20% educators. What let's imagine, you know, that's a guess. Let's imagine that those organizations were made up of 20% educators and 80% artists. What would our nature reserves look like if that were the case, because I've spent a lot of my career campaigning against zoos and aquariums. I don't believe in him. I think it's cruel for nature. And I don't think that people see the real animals and they don't learn about them. They see a shadow of the real animal. But I was in a nature reserve the other day, and I was like, I actually feel like almost like I'm the zoo animal in this location, because I'm restricted as to where I can walk.  I'm learning almost nothing. I get given a hide and a bird sheet, which to be honest, I know what it all means anyway, but if I didn't Wouldn't it help me? And, you know, that's the limitation like, no one's given me an acorn and saying or a poppy seed and saying this is yours make, just go and plant it wherever you like and be part of this ecosystem. No one's saying, there's a fantastic area there where you can just go and climb trees. And we don't care if you like, you know, rip down branches and behave like a bison and just build your own dens. Like what? Sorry, at what point when nature reserves and places where people can't actually really interact with the nature itself? How are we going to get all these kids in the next generation really inspired by this stuff if we're restricted to a footpath, and a height. And also, when we talk about kind of limitations, this particular nature, so if I had to pay a lot of money to get into it, I have to pay an annual membership fee, or I have to pay a lot of money at the door, I am lucky that I can afford to do that, and take my children to actually have that experience. But the problem with these membership based organizations is they are stuck in having to appeal to their membership base, which is generally middle class middle aged. So the emphasis and the focus is not saying that no work is done in other areas, but the emphasis and the focus is always on appeasing and appealing to that group. So all of these things historically, have left us bereft of imagination when it comes to educating people about nature. So yeah, there's a whole The exciting thing is, let's ask the question, what if we did this totally differently? What if people were genuinely allowed to be part of these ecosystems? We are part of nature?

Marina: Yeah, I love it. I love what you're saying. Because it's, you know, when I like talking to people as well, because it shifts the way I see the world and it shifts the way I see the possibility. And I think this is part of what we're really talking about, as well as this creative moments. Where hadn't even thought of that, you know, and, in a way, yeah, what you've described, the nature reserve is kind of, like a mirror of our own, capture our own self. Yeah, capturing if that's not even aware, but you know, and I think that's really important. And I'm thinking about, also your thread of community. And of course, I'm going back to schools and thinking, where schools are, where the children are in their community and thinking well, how, you know, how can we create situations where they do feel like they have, they're a part of that, like you say, and more and have more ownership, and I guess, in a way that part of the forest school movement goes somewhere towards that, because it's, it's giving a lot of these kinds of values of, you know, choice and autonomy and self directed learning and participation whilst being held with good values of caring for the land, you know, it does have that, but it does definitely have that but I'm thinking of the spaces around children in our communities are, you know, their teens aren't there you know, mo no, Mo May is a big deal because everywhere everything is just grass, isn't it? And so Yeah, so I know I've been in the woods with you with a picture of a wild boar and then we behaved like wild boar. And I think, and I really enjoyed it, but also think that's an example. I think of what you're saying as well that we could actually take an area of our schools and I'm not necessarily think about urban jungles in this way. And that would be another conversation, but certainly there are lots of hospital grounds a lot of school grounds where we could, couldn't we become wild boar presumably and dig it up and create the soil? That would be perfect for the growing of other plants? Is that right? Can you see that?

Dylan: I can very much there. And it is frustrating that we most of the population don't have access to most of the land. And that's a lot you know, that's a longer term challenge. We need to fight tooth and nail to get more access to land for communities doesn't have to be ownership, but I think it is about access and the opportunity. But, you know, right now, there are lots of wonderful little pockets and places which are fantastic for nature and you know, school grounds being even concrete school grounds you know, it's their nature finds a way of, of being in all of these places. And I think there is so much more we can do with those spaces. And we should say, like anybody, we should probably be looking at our own backyards. First, how we can make the change there? Because for a child, you know, yes, awesome to show them a blue whale, but equally awesome to get them holding a great crested Newt, or, you know, finding a toad in the backyard or a hedgehog, like, you know, this stuff is absolutely inspiring as well. So, you know, it's all out there for the taking,

Marina: is inspiring. But, you know, I did environmental education in the 19, late 80s, early 1990s. And at that time, it we would, I would describe it now as being very instrumental environmental education. So it wasn't very emotional. It wasn't very experiential, it was more about, okay, let's count the things in the pond, which is exciting. But it's not very relational. So I think I actually think we're talking about something much more embodied, and much more, with a lot more vitality. And I'm thinking about, like, when we play a lot of games, particularly in the nature conservation movement, we're like, smelling like the animals, we're listening like the owls, we're kind of embodying it in a way that even though yes, that's a very human, you know, centered we are, I'm a human, so I'm clearly not on pretending to be a dog or whatever. You know, it's kind of, it's not true to the animal, but it has elements of that. And that feels much more connecting than being like object to object, because I think that's the big thing as well, you know, we've been gripped, we've kind of grown up in a western paradigm of, you know, this is the object, this is the tree, and I'm, you know, going to study the tree, let's say, but not really feeling that the tree is alive or has any agency in itself. Yeah. And that's really important, because we've talked about this with indigenous knowledge and other ways of viewing life with, you know, life being animate as well, that if you have when you see life in that way, you it changes your relationship to everything really. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think that also makes me want to mention in when we talked about rewilding, that I also heard recently that it's not seen as a positive word in Canada and places because it was seen as okay in the past, I'm going to take I'm going to we're going to remove the people from the land, and we're going to wild rewild it. What a huge atrocity, because actually those people with a very different worldview. Were doing as you've been describing, they were actually participating in caretaking and adding to it and people were part of the landscapes. So I think we need to say yes, rewilding, but we've got to be careful that we're, as you've been saying, we're having the people that have the right values. And I don't know, sensibility, I suppose. Who will participate is it seems really important when we're not studying about any more we're kind of doing it with. Would you agree with that?

Dylan: Yeah, I do agree that I mean, the first part of what you were saying about children and game playing, and being creative, and being imaginative, and actually, you know, again, you don't see this stuff when you go to a nature reserve. And there's not enough of it out there. But it does exist it and it's so fantastic. I mean, I remember hearing recently of a guy who asked lots of children to go out in the woods. And they basically were allowed to do absolutely whatever they liked. And so, you know, obviously, they created stories, and they dreamt up dragons, and they, you know, had mock fights, and they did, you know, all these kinds of different things, different groups did different things. And then they came back. And they mapped these experiences. And then he went away and created like a multi layered storytelling map of this place as it was wild place as it was viewed by the children. So suddenly, it's like, you know, the hobbit holes over there and the battlefields over there. And, you know, the enormous Beatle hero is over there, you know, and it's like, wow, you know, what an amazing imagined space. And I think this is what children and adults I don't differentiate between the two, we all started off our lives, with play and with art and creativity and actually with nature. It's just a question of shifting ourselves back to that and wonderful kind of good things happen. In terms of kind of rewarding and people being removed from the land and indigenous communities being removed from the land. I mean, you know, obviously that awful terrible and should never have happened and the nature conservation movement across the world is littered, unfortunately, with example. And the National Park movement is littered with examples of, you know, people's thinking often in the past, but it's still happening today in East Africa, for example, where it's like, well, you know, you live here, but actually, we've decided that this is for nature. So you're going to have to move out, you know, because that's going to be better for nature. But by the way, we are going to run it for a game park, and we'll have a load of people have come over from the Middle East, you know, pay us a lot of money. Oh, I see. So all this stuff is kind of still happening, there was a brilliant paper, scientific paper, I think it's maybe 2018, one of my favorites of all time, it looked at three big countries, Canada, Brazil, and Australia, looked over huge geographical areas and looked at biodiversity in places where there were no people over the place that were run as national parks without people, indigenous communities and other managed land. And it found that the places within in that were indigenous community managed had higher or either equal or higher levels of biodiversity than the protected areas without human management. So what so this is great, because this is turning on its head, this perspective of Nature needs to be left alone. And what it's telling us is no, we're part of nature, we are one of those ecosystem engineers, that tramples and hunts and fishes and you know, lights, fires, and if done properly, in respect for nature, and with a great understanding for nature, it can enhance nature. And for me, that's the aspiration that should be the goal. Because there's, you know, what, 6 billion or whatever people on the planet, it can't be ignored, we need to be in these spaces. The challenge is, how can we do that, as a collective responsibly as a community that respects and feels like it's part of the natural world?

Marina: It's so exciting to hear you talk about this, because I've heard and been around in this movement for a while as well. And I think we have knowledge, do you not? I mean, we've got knowledge. But we haven't. And I think the children know about, you know, climate change, and they get the facts. But what you're speaking to is something that has so much vitality, you know, and I would love, I'm excited to really start asking that question. You know, what could people imagine? And listen, because it's exactly that who we listening to? And I think with that new inspiration, I guess it will be really helpful. And I wonder, then, why do you think then this is a time potentially for optimism, knowing that, as you said, as we all know, there's so much going on there that is so challenging. Why might we be optimistic?

Dylan: Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you touched on facts, because I mean, facts and dharma scientists, facts and data and research. They're really important. They've taken us, you know, such a long way. But I think we also need to acknowledge that they don't, often they don't convince people. You know, Rob Hopkins is sort of one of the lead players in the transition movement, one of my great idols, I have to say at the moment, he's done so many great things. But, you know, he says in his book facts, don't convince people facts, don't convince people that have decided that climate change isn't a thing, you know. But what does convince just giving them more facts isn't going to make them change their minds? What does?

Marina: Yeah, and we're information, you know, so dense information everywhere. Yeah. Okay,

Dylan: information over what? What is so you know, dreaming of a different future, telling the story of how things might be getting people excited. That's what shifts perception. So that's where we need to be putting our attention in these days of absolute overload of information. I mean, I was on BBC News today, I think I counted the top 10 news items, all of them, in my view, were depressing. All of those 10. So that's not a good use of my time. What is a much better use of my time is to go out and talk to all the people in my community about how things could be better, and dream about how exciting it would be to be able to work with them on solutions and opportunities and imagining a better world together.

Marina: It's exciting because it's that thing about using our capacity for imagination, but also grounding it, you know, grounding it in yes scientific practice, you know, which has so much to offer. But on its own, as you say, it's less effective, you know, we need to kind of harness all these all our capacities for dreaming for. Yeah, for emotional literacy. And for knowledge, it seems so important. And I guess, because we started about the community woodland, I know that we're, well, you know, you've even planted a seed in my imagination that it may be possible to have beavers be reintroduced around into this land, and you know, it might I can feel my skin kind of pimpling, you know. And I guess before you might say something about that, it's when you know, this invitation to imagine for me, I guess I'm imagining being in Sussex and this woodland of 200 400 acres, because it's only community woodland for 200 acres. I can see like, I could imagine being a bird. And I could imagine seeing that some point, flying up high and seeing that woodland connecting to the rivers connecting to more pockets all the way to the sea. And I would love to park participate in that. And yeah, you know, I think what you're saying is really powerful. And is it really true that we might be able to get beavers really true?

Dylan: Not only is it true, I would argue it's just the start, you know, there is there's a sort of transition movement technique which is you know, you say oh, we you know, we'd love to have beavers and I say to you okay it's done with the Beavers are there you know, we've made we've Matic once we've made that happen. The beavers are actually now in Lawton was and you know, back 50 People are going to see them every single day. And, you know, kids, can the local school have actually named the beavers and all this one. So what would you like to happen next? And you go through this? Yeah, well, let's ask that question. And beavers there. What next? Marina? What would you like for Lawson Greenwood after the beavers?

Marina: Wow, that's amazing. Well, first, I want to just check the Beavers are going to be okay. They're not going to be like zoos do not. I mean, that's my so my fear. I'm being honest. That was my fear, like, oh my god, you know, but Well, what next? Well, I want to see rivers that are alive that are clean. That's what I want to see.

Dylan: Wonderful. So there's that you now have beavers and there's a beautiful clean river that's running through Lawson Greenwood. And then we ask the question, what's next? And again, it's just another way of actually setting your sights and your vision to something, you know that's a wonderful ambition, because in these times have such difficulties and challenging and we all recognize that there's this eco anxiety that many people feel, you know, we've got to dream big, it's no good taking one tiny little step forward in the right direction that is not going to you know, give us the resilience that our communities and our nature need. We have to be ambitious, but it's amazing how quick you can be. And that's really exciting. But yes, you can definitely have beavers in Morton Greenwood.

Marina: Oh, my God, I'm so we're so going back to that it you know, there will be a podcast about beavers in the future, you know. But what I want to say is it made me think about I think I was about 19. And I was traveling in Africa and I wrote a letter to Lorenz Vander Post who you might know, because he was a well known conservation person. And he wrote back to me, you know, and it was an amazing thing to receive a letter from somebody that I'd only read a book about. And he wrote back to me, and I must have been, like you say, 19 or 20. And he said, Little Women, we are part of the community to come. And I love that. And I just think that's a nice way to end I think, Dylan, you're part of a community that's here, but it's coming. And I think there are millions and millions of people out there that want to participate. So yeah, let's do it.

Dylan: Let's do it. No, I think I am. I am gonna say I am. But you are too. And we all are. We're all part of that community. And we just need to step back and make it happen. I you know, somebody said recently that in this crisis, governments move too slow. We've just passed, you know, one point we're passing 1.5 degrees, which was the limit we've been talking about for over a decade as being you know, worry, individuals feel helpless, but as communities, you know, we can do it because the talent and the passion and the experience and the feeling of camaraderie is that's all you need. So that has to be the future for us, I think.

Marina: So although I will say in the introduction and the kind of what we call outros in this podcast business. Is there anything that people could do to support what you're doing or the communities you're involved in, is there anything that I mean, you're talking to lots of ways in a way just saying I can is a massive thing but is there anything specifically that you feel would be helpful?

Dylan: I mean, I'm really interested, I say that again. I'm really interested in the what ifs. If you have ideas on how your future with nature could be amazing in this country, then send them to me. I guess my contact details could be placed in the information for this podcast somewhere. Or you can contact me on [email protected].

Marina: It's amazing. Yeah, thank you so much. And yeah, see you soon. We're gonna have a meeting about beavers.

Dylan: Thanks, Marina.

Marina: Thanks for speaking to me, Dylan. I love the potential of dreaming and visualizing what you really would like to happen in our community before you get lost in all the potential barriers. Join me next week for Episode 38, where I share my vision for transforming education and health and the latest research from a project that explored the impact of nature based training, a training that's called the certificate in nature based training that I co lead for practitioners in mental health and public, primary, and community health services.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wild Minds Podcast. If you enjoyed it and want to help support this podcast, please subscribe, share and leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your review will help others find the show. To stay updated with the wild mines podcast and get all the behind the scenes content. You can visit theoutdoorteacher.com or follow me on Facebook at the outdoor teacher UK and LinkedIn. Marina Robb,

The music was written and performed by Geoff Robb.

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